Health Bill passed!

[Hootus1]

To Chode;

We use to pass around a joke on my job. It was a tax form that only had two questions on it;

1. How much did you make?

2. Send it in!

That use to be funny, unfortunately now it is coming true.

 

[maniactickler38]

We should get rid of other socialist programs as well. including medicaid and soc sec.

 

[Kenjisan]

"onestly, I couldn't be happier that this passed. I am an independent, and a full-time student, but cannot afford health insurance while I am in school. In 2006, I had a abdominal surgery and was left with $40,000 in medical debt. Despite my efforts to negotiate with the hospital to pay off the debt, they wanted nothing less than $300 a month."

How is your school paid for?


And its not about health care for everyone, no one is against that. Its how it is being paid for. The Dems dont care that the country is going to be so in debt that the country becomes bankrupt. The American dream is killed. You bust your but and make alot of cash? Sorry, the gov now gets half. Not ok.

School is paid for by federal student loans. What's left is enough for rent and basic living expenses. The facts in your bit are skewed. The American dream is not killed. The government does not get half, not even if you're one of the wealthier Americans providing more taxes.

CBO says this law reduces the deficit by over a trillion dollars over 20 years. This bill is self-supporting, essentially, based on the money thats paid into the system, and the costs that are expected to be reduced by cutting waste from the system. Now, if you wanna believe the CBO is somehow "biased and partisan" for backing up the law with facts, that's fine with me. You've obviously made up your mind that despite the factual predictions being made, the law is doomed to failure.

If you stopped thinking of doomsday scenarios every time something like this happens, you'd be a lot more stress free.

Meanwhile, I'm gonna optimistically welcome whats been accomplished here. Tell you what, if in 20 years we can legitimately look back and say this was a failure, I owe you a coke. ; p

 

[Hootus1]

I'll take a coke, unless the government outlaws sugar! Hahaha:lol

 

[chode]

You really havent done your due diligence to see who and how much is going to be laid out in new taxes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62P48W20100326


A bunch of my friends that JUST THIS WEEK lost their jobs at AT&T, thank you for supporting this assholes bill. SOmeof the countries biggest job creators are now going to be making major cuts.

 

[Cbarton]

For his Public Speaking piece for the Speech and Drama team, my son's speech has been on the so-called health care 'reform' bill. He and I have read the many versions of it.

First, everyone will be REQUIRED to have some form of health insurance. No where in the constitution does the government have the right to FORCE you to buy something. And no, I don't thing you can stretch the 'general welfare' clause that far. In my state, you are required to have auto coverage, but I can opt out by not driving. If we had decent light rail, I'd consider it. But, I can't opt out of living, short of committing suicide. That precedent enough is scary from a democracy stand point. What next? Require me to have to something else they, on a whim, decide is mandatory? Perhaps require me to only buy products at Kohls to line the senator from Wisconsin's wallet all the more? The possibilities are endless.

No previous conditions refused. Sounds well, good, noble and all that jazz. So, how much more are my premiums going to be raised to cover those costs? You have to remember the main drive of any business is 'no margin, no mission.' Everyone wants the best in health care, but no seems to think they should have to pay for it. Trust me, I've seen the people come to the pharmacy counter in their mink coats, leave in a shiny new caddy using a public aid card for their prescriptions. I've seen both sides of the story in my career.

And if they are capped in how much they can raise rates, some companies will go out of business. And, if the 'public option' is rammed down our throats, kiss your choices goodbye. The Fed will have the ability to set lower premiums than the private firms. Since the Fed doesn't have to make a profit to survive, the privates will go belly up, and we'll all be forced into a Medicare-esque public system.

So now employers will be forced to buy insurance for their employees. Increase the employer's overhead with that and they will have to either (1) increase prices of products (inflation), lay off employees to lower overhead to afford the insurance (increased unemployment), or (3) pay fines to the Fed, leading to more of the above. Wow, that is really going to help people in the current economy. Also, if I remember correctly, if the employer has 5 full-time equivalents of employees on public aid health-wise that are full-time, their are more fines to pay. So, anyone on public aid will either not get a full time position, or the company limits the number of those employees. Just wait until that flies into the face of the American with Disabilities Act or other such bills. Which one wins, Supreme Court?

The Obama-rama Traveling Political Salvation show seems to think that they know how to run a business, even though the vast majority of those people in the White House or under the Capital Dome have never had to meet payroll in their lives. Employers since the late 1970's offered health insurance to employees as a benefit, as a lure to get them to work for them. Why suddenly do people think that employers should be FORCED to offer it? "Big Bad Walmart wasn't giving health benefits to their employees...Boo hoo hoo..." Show me where in the Constitution it says that they are required to? Anywhere? Which article? No, people want someone else to do things for them and not have to be responsible for themselves. Make someone else pay for it. Why should I? I'm 'entitled"...

Self-paying system? They said that about Social Security in the 1930's. And Medicare and Medicaid when they came out. Look at them now. Very few, if any, gov't programs of this size run in the black. And, if this is soooo important, why do we have to wait FOUR years for it to kick in? If things are SOOOOOOOOO FREAKING BAD, why the long wait? I can tell you why. It's so those who voted for it can get out of town and The Obama-rama Traveling Political Salvation Show can get reelected BEFORE it kicks in and people find out what it is like to have the IRS enforcing their health care plan. You think the bill collectors on the phone are bad? Imagine the IRS coming to collect on your health care bills! No bankruptcy can hide you from them.

My fear is people think that this will bring out free health care and lure them into a false sense of security until the rude awakening hits and people see what kind of power grab this bill actually is. But, by then, it will be too late.

 

[Jaynin]

For his Public Speaking piece for the Speech and Drama team, my son's speech has been on the so-called health care 'reform' bill. He and I have read the many versions of it.

First, everyone will be REQUIRED to have some form of health insurance. No where in the constitution does the government have the right to FORCE you to buy something. And no, I don't thing you can stretch the 'general welfare' clause that far. In my state, you are required to have auto coverage, but I can opt out by not driving. If we had decent light rail, I'd consider it. But, I can't opt out of living, short of committing suicide. That precedent enough is scary from a democracy stand point. What next? Require me to have to something else they, on a whim, decide is mandatory? Perhaps require me to only buy products at Kohls to line the senator from Wisconsin's wallet all the more? The possibilities are endless.

No previous conditions refused. Sounds well, good, noble and all that jazz. So, how much more are my premiums going to be raised to cover those costs? You have to remember the main drive of any business is 'no margin, no mission.' Everyone wants the best in health care, but no seems to think they should have to pay for it. Trust me, I've seen the people come to the pharmacy counter in their mink coats, leave in a shiny new caddy using a public aid card for their prescriptions. I've seen both sides of the story in my career.

And if they are capped in how much they can raise rates, some companies will go out of business. And, if the 'public option' is rammed down our throats, kiss your choices goodbye. The Fed will have the ability to set lower premiums than the private firms. Since the Fed doesn't have to make a profit to survive, the privates will go belly up, and we'll all be forced into a Medicare-esque public system.

So now employers will be forced to buy insurance for their employees. Increase the employer's overhead with that and they will have to either (1) increase prices of products (inflation), lay off employees to lower overhead to afford the insurance (increased unemployment), or (3) pay fines to the Fed, leading to more of the above. Wow, that is really going to help people in the current economy. Also, if I remember correctly, if the employer has 5 full-time equivalents of employees on public aid health-wise that are full-time, their are more fines to pay. So, anyone on public aid will either not get a full time position, or the company limits the number of those employees. Just wait until that flies into the face of the American with Disabilities Act or other such bills. Which one wins, Supreme Court?

The Obama-rama Traveling Political Salvation show seems to think that they know how to run a business, even though the vast majority of those people in the White House or under the Capital Dome have never had to meet payroll in their lives. Employers since the late 1970's offered health insurance to employees as a benefit, as a lure to get them to work for them. Why suddenly do people think that employers should be FORCED to offer it? "Big Bad Walmart wasn't giving health benefits to their employees...Boo hoo hoo..." Show me where in the Constitution it says that they are required to? Anywhere? Which article? No, people want someone else to do things for them and not have to be responsible for themselves. Make someone else pay for it. Why should I? I'm 'entitled"...

Self-paying system? They said that about Social Security in the 1930's. And Medicare and Medicaid when they came out. Look at them now. Very few, if any, gov't programs of this size run in the black. And, if this is soooo important, why do we have to wait FOUR years for it to kick in? If things are SOOOOOOOOO FREAKING BAD, why the long wait? I can tell you why. It's so those who voted for it can get out of town and The Obama-rama Traveling Political Salvation Show can get reelected BEFORE it kicks in and people find out what it is like to have the IRS enforcing their health care plan. You think the bill collectors on the phone are bad? Imagine the IRS coming to collect on your health care bills! No bankruptcy can hide you from them.

My fear is people think that this will bring out free health care and lure them into a false sense of security until the rude awakening hits and people see what kind of power grab this bill actually is. But, by then, it will be too late.

If the government was limited only to the powers described in the Constitution, we'd have a hell of a lot more amendments to the Constitution. Our forefathers were wise enough to create an elastic document that would permit the government to adapt to the times. Let's face it; the requirements for effective governing in 1783 and the requirements for effective governing in 2010 are vastly different. I can understand concerns about government overreach, but really; look at European states or Japan (in which I happen to live in) and look at their systems. Then ask yourself; does the government micromanage every aspect of their citizens' lives because they're required to have health care? The answer is no. Furthermore, I DO have a choice. I can go to Kurokawa Clinic, or Kondou Clinic, or Ishizuchiyama Clinic as I so choose. The guy at Ishizuchiyama knows a fair bit of English, so I choose to go there despite the fact that Kurokawa is MUCH closer to where I live. I think it cheapens your argument when you reach for the slippery slope so quickly.

Also, your "no margin no mission" comment strikes me as ridiculously callous. People cannot choose to be born wealthy in good health. Here's a dilemma; faced with letting someone who has a fair bit of money spend less on government-financed health care, is that an acceptable consequence to getting someone with the "misfortune" to be born poor the health care they need? Or would you rather the uninsured stay uninsured just so someone doesn't "cheat the system" and save a few bucks? Also, isn't there a tax break for business and other government assistance? I'm not saying the system is going to magically pay for itself, and we'll likely go deeper into debt with China, but the Republicans had eight years in office to pare back government and didn't do a thing. If we're going to be in debt anyway, shouldn't we be buying a GOOD thing?

The American people are ridiculously resistant to even well-intentioned changes. That is, until they have them. Medicare and Social Security were huge hot-button issues in their day with almost identical cries of "socialist" and what have you (Americans misuse that word so badly I'm not sure if it's funny or sad) but if you tried to take them away now you'd face a revolt. Does no one else find it hideously ironic that Medicare recipients are saying "get the government out of my healthcare"?

A final note. Expanding the pool of covered persons will ultimately lessen the burden of premiums because more people are paying money in. The United States spends more money per capita on health than any nation in the world and yet ranks near the bottom in all sorts of health-related statistics. How can you say this is a good thing or "the best healthcare system in the world"? If you measure "best" by doctor's salaries, then sure. Of course people are going to come to America if they can make a metric ass-ton of money. And I doubt that will change so much; if you have the money, go ahead and get your battery of expensive tests and specialists. You can afford it, bully for you. But if you don't have the money, then is it not reasonable to expect a MINIMUM level of health care? Canada's system is oft-maligned in this debate, but Canada and Australia (to my knowledge) rank far, far higher in world health care statistics than do America. I often speak with Australians online and most of them can do nothing but shake their heads in disbelief at how opposed Americans are to this system.

If the rest of the world is doing something, isn't that a possibly good indication that such a system works? American exceptionalism is not an unconditionally good thing.

 

[Kenjisan]

Well said, Jaynin.


Hey, I didn't know you were in Japan. Where are you hanging around these days? I've been chillin' in Tokyo since late September.

 

[Jaynin]

Well said, Jaynin.


Hey, I didn't know you were in Japan. Where are you hanging around these days? I've been chillin' in Tokyo since late September.

Down in Shikoku. I live on the Seto Inland Sea side of the island, with the closest major cities being Hiroshima and Osaka. Been to Tokyo only a few times, it takes like six hours to get there even if I take the Shinkansen.

 

[Kenjisan]

ジェイニンの住んでいる場所は面白そうね。なんか英語の教師かJETプログラムみたいなやっているの？東京の暮らしって、今までなかなか楽しいのような気がするけどさ。でも、東京は国際大都市としては、あれ本物の日本だと言えないのかな。

Always wanted to see Shikoku. 僕は自然の方がいいねって。

とにかく、国民健康保険 represent, right! I'm gonna miss my socialized health care when I go back to the states.

Good luck with things while you're here.

 

[Cbarton]

Jaynin, as a health care professional I have seen all sides of this issue. I've seen the public aid cheats. I've seen those in poverty in need of care. My wife works on the liver transplant floor at the local children's hospital and has seen couples divorce for the sole reason of getting the child on public aid to pay the mounting bills. I'm not callous, I'm smart enough to look at all sides of the issue. Including the, dare I say it, the BUSINESS side of it? After all, last I saw, health care here in the US is still not a not-for-profit charity arrangement. It takes lots of money to create and research the wonder drugs that everyone wants. It takes money to pay the salaries of the X-ray techs, the nurses, the pharmacists, the docs, etc.

My problem isn't with health care reform. My problem is this new bill that has been signed into law that is merely, once read, a power grab by the federal government to take more and more control of our lives, this time via the health care situation. We need real health care reform and tort reform to get prices and coverage where it needs to be.

The primary problem is that people have this mindset of not really knowing what their health care costs. All they do is pay to the insurance company their premiums, expect the health care professionals to give them a million dollar workup for a hangnail, and get their prescription filled in 15 seconds 'cause HEAVEN FORBID they might have to wait so we can make sure we do it right and it won't interact with everything else they are taking. People outside the health care professions are clueless to what health care really costs.

Offer real reform? Sure, I'll look it over and see if it will really do anything. Just make a law requiring employers to insure people and fine people if they don't take it? That's not real reform. That's wealth relocation and social engineering. Besides, if the Brother Obama-rama's Traveling Political Salvation Show, Pelosi and company get their way, soon we'll be back to an elitist-pauper economy. That's the ultimate goal of the so-called Progressive Movement anyway, more and more power to the government and less to the people.