In Defense of Michael Vick

[Heeko]

It was suggested that Heeko might be a troll because he posted once then disappeared for quite awhile. Now that he's back and posting, it would seem evident he is not a troll.

And here's my theory. Neither Capnmad nor Heeko is terribly passionate about this argument (or if they are, that's still not the point here.) I think what we've got here is two people who are passionate about debate for the sake of debate.

For a minute, I thought maybe it was one person with two screen names.

I assure you lk70 we are not the same person lol. Capnmad seems like a cool friend though. I like everyone so far at TMF.

That's the great thing about a forum like this. Everyone is free to express his or her opinions and have fun while doing so.

I like the drawing in your sig. Is it your artwork?

 

[Redmage]

First, no one here knows exactly, what specifically, Vick actually did. There was no trial, there was no testimony. A guilty plea does not tell anyone what the exact, specific crime was outside of the obviously stated.

Here are the charges. That's what he pleaded guilty to.
specific enough?

Personally I'm still wondering why you don't condone doing a dog a favor.

 

[Mastertank1]

Waxing pedantic, as is my wont.

Clearing up one or two miscpnceptions here.

First; Felis Domesticus, the common housecat, has been observed playing with mice or other pray, pretending to lose interest and let them flee before pouncing again, just for sport. This behavior is no wau limited to immature cats; they do it throughout life.

Second; Cats do not hunt only to feed them selves; they are often seen to present the kill they have just taken to their human owner/partner as a token, perhaps of fealty, perhaps of affection, perhaps as a fair trade for tasty cat food.

Third; Tigers in the wild have been observed hunting and killing other anumals purely for sport, having recently eaten and not consuming any of the kill, nor even storing it for future use, but merely abandoning it once it's dead.

Welcome back Shadow, missed you here!

Fourth; the 'sport' of bullfighting is even worse than Shadow described it. It is not a one on contest between matador and bull. It is a whole GANG of human tormenters against the one bull. It works like this;

First, the matador uses a large cape and gets the bull aggravated.

Then, a group called picadors come in. They are mounted on horseback and stick the bull with long lances, making it bleed and angering it further.

Then another group called banderilleros come in. Each of these is armed with a pair of short banderillas, two foot long sticks with six inch blades sticking out of one end. These are decorated with flowers in bright colors. They plant these sticks in the bull's shoulders so that they cause more pain and flap around in the bull's peripheral vision, distracting and annoying it.

Then the matador cames back with a short cape on a stick, concealing his sword, to make a few more showy passes and then strike the death blow.

One final item; just to stack the odds against the bull even more, just an hour before the 'fight' (really a gang mugging) begins, the bull's horns are shortened by four inches on each side and dulled, so that the bull, who is used to striking with horns of a certain length and sharpness, will be thrown off and likely miss his strikes even if the matador has been careless enough to allow the bull that close. And that is the point; when a matador is gored by a bull, the mtatador has been careless or reckless to allow the horns that close to begin with.

To end on a lighter note; a conversation overheard in Sonora, Mexico.

Official tourist guide;
And over there is the arena where bullfights are held. Bullfighting is Mexico's favorite sport!

Matronly tourist;
But isn't it revolting?

Guide;
No, senora, revolting is our second favorite sport!

The ever-informative Mitch
aka

 

[Heeko]

Here are the charges. That's what he pleaded guilty to.
specific enough?

Personally I'm still wondering why you don't condone doing a dog a favor.

Actually this isn't very specific. Page 17 states that he and two others were involved and did execute 8 dogs by various means. Again, this is a 'collective effort'. No where does it state specifically how many Michael Vick himself killed. He could have watched, he could have supplied the materials, who knows what 'specifically' Michael Vick did. This is no different from the robbery situation I made up. Unless you were there, no one knows for fact what specifically Michael Vick did to contribute. Mike Vick pleaded guilty to being involved in a collective effort. That's what this document presents.

However, thanks for taking time to link it. I appreciate your time and effort.

As stated before, his main crime was being involved with gambling and that's where he's burned himself in regards to his NFL standing.

I've stated several times, I do not condone his actions. What happened to those dogs was horrible.

I made the point that Michael Vick has done a lot of good in life too. Dogs will never do the good he has done but dogs are capable of doing the bad he has done. What about the innocent defenseless kids that get chewed and gnawed and grinded to death by dogs that attack them for no reason? Are those dogs any better than Vick? Yet will those same dogs ever contribute to life the way Vick has prior to this crime? Consider everything before judging someone for life.

It's easy to say those are dumb animals. Forgive them because they didn't know better and Vick did. But that won't bring back the little babies they chewed, bit and mangled to a horrible, sadistic bloody death. You seem to be placing animal value over human value and that is your choice. As I stated, there's a reason the police force calls them expendable in critical situations.

Why do you find it so hard to forgive an actual human who has done a lot of good for society, and so easy to forgive an animal?

 

[lk70]

Third; Tigers in the wild have been observed hunting and killing other anumals purely for sport, having recently eaten and not consuming any of the kill, nor even storing it for future use, but merely abandoning it once it's dead.

Gotta blow the whistle and call foul on this one. "Tigers in the wild have been observed hunting and killing other animals....having recently eaten and not consuming blah blah blah."

You can't say with any scientific certainty that they're doing that for sport. A decent argument could be made that they're doing it for practice- seeing an opportunity and taking it to "stay sharp."

A crazy argument could say that it's altruistic behavior, that they're leaving it behind for weaker animals to consume (that's certainly what happens, isn't it?)

Stating that it's for sport is anthropomorphic.

 

[lk70]

I like the drawing in your sig. Is it your artwork?

Nah. I can't even draw a tic-tac-toe board. A fellow TMFer sent this to me.

 

[steph]

No. I'd expect a better response from someone as intelligent as you Shadow. This sorry cop-out might hold if we weren't talking about a multi-millionaire. Look, if y'gonna plan to screw up in advance (and clearly Vick did,) you cover your ass, have a backup plan. If he'd had a brain (or a heart) or any of his sadistic co-morons did, they'd have had an on-call vetrinarian available 24/7 to humanely euthanize these dogs. Think how much better off this would have been for him if they'd had thought of this, maybe even allowed THIS to be caught on camera on top of what they actually caught him with.
Whole different scenario, isn't it?

And to some of the rest of you, animals may maul for "play" or for food. They NEVER attack maliciously for no good, random reason, or for financial profit~humans are the only animal capable of this sick deed. Animals do not know any better, people do. NOTHING "good" Vick has done will ever make what he did ok.
XOXO

Here, in North Carolina, torturing dogs to death is considered a fiscally sound alternative to a more gentle form of euthanasia. The heartless bastards that run some of the pounds down here have an interesting way of killing dogs that are no longer wanted. They figure that a euthanizing injection is too expensive, so instead, they lock the dogs in a compression chamber, and suck out all the air, allowing the dogs to suffocate slowly in excruciating pain and terrible fear.

 

[Redmage]

Actually this isn't very specific. Page 17 states that he and two others were involved and did execute 8 dogs by various means. Again, this is a 'collective effort'. No where does it state specifically how many Michael Vick himself killed. He could have watched, he could have supplied the materials, who knows what 'specifically' Michael Vick did.

And again, why does that matter? Maybe he watched, maybe he pulled the trigger, maybe he just told his partners to do it and forgot about it. Since we agree that delegating these crimes makes no difference in his guilt or his character, it doesn't matter.

I've stated several times, I do not condone his actions. What happened to those dogs was horrible.

And you've also stated that he was doing the dogs a favor. So I ask again, why don't you condone doing an animal a favor?

 

[steph]

You're fucking welcome "for that." Will there be anything else???

ahh good point....animals never attack for no good...thanks for that

 

[steph]

There are breed-specific dog rescue shelters all over the US~they are more than willing to do all the hard work~all ya gotta do is tip them off to the abuse site. One of my best friends heads the local wolf rescue shelter~she's gone as far as Alaska to help a dog. Anyone who gives a rat's ass enough to care should actually ask around instead of enabling and whining in vain.

 

[Maestro1874]

110 posts. All about a criminal. One criminal. Mostly because he knows how to throw a piece of inflated leather down a piece of naturally created graph paper.

I'm not sure I understand why there is any need to "defend" Michael Vick. Regardless of anyone's personal opinion, a stable society requires rules to prevent a decent into chaos. These rules will never satisfy all. Nevertheless, they seem to be self evident to the vast majority of the citizenry. Most human beings do not need to be told that deliberately tormenting another living being is wrong. Mr Vick and his friends apparently disagree, and thus will be separated from society at large until time that they are deemed ready to accept the strictures of this community.

In short: Opinion is not relevant here. Michael Vick's actions are not defensible nor are they in dispute. If he loses his career, he did so by his own disastrously poor decisions. He is not a victim. He is not to be pitied. Football is a business. If Michael Vick is deemed to have value to the business after he serves whatever sentence he receives then he will most certainly be on a field again at some point. However, if not then he'll have to find his own way elsewhere. This could be the CFL or it could be Sonics. Either way, no one created this situation for him. He did it.

Nice Rant I have here. I'll say one thing, if the purpose of this thread was to incite a revolution, it certainly worked.

-Maestro

 

[barefeetarebest]

I don’t like what Vick did.

I don’t approve of dog fights.

I don’t like mistreating animals in anyway.

I am glad Vick is going to jail.

I just think there are a lot of different types of abusive behavior that goes unpunished.

Why do we need to be so abusive to children, animals, and our fellow man or women?

I am just an Old U.S. Marine that has been to places I don’t want to remember. I have hurt my fellow man in ways I would like to forget. I just want violence to stop. I believe violence is obsolete. We should have evolved by now into a more peaceful society.

But I know this is just a pipe dream.

Maybe this will clear up some of what I posted earlier.

Good luck to all.
Aloha, John.

Sir, I give you all the RESPECT in the world you so deserve. I wish everyone shared this wish. Hat's off to you and thank you for your service.

 

[Heeko]

And to some of the rest of you, animals may maul for "play" or for food. They NEVER attack maliciously for no good, random reason, or for financial profit~humans are the only animal capable of this sick deed. Animals do not know any better, people do. NOTHING "good" Vick has done will ever make what he did ok.
XOXO

I guess we agree to disagree. I've seen little kids mangled and chewed to bits who were doing nothing but playing outside. They weren't throwing anything at the dog and they weren't yelling at the dog. They were in their yard, on their property, playing like kids do and minding their own business. They didn't go and attack the dog, the dog decided to go and attack them. Just because the dog 'doesn't know any better' doesn't make it ok and it won't bring that little kid back. Going by your theory I guess the dog has it's reasons. Maybe it missed dinner.

First, you say dogs never attack for no good, random reason or financial profit. Is taking the life of a little child a good thing? If they have 'reason' for attacking the child, that proceeds the notion of reason itself with planning and calculation. Then you say they do not know any better? You can't have it both ways. It's like saying it's a dumb animal then saying it's smart enough to reason and calculate who and when it attacks.

I have never said what Vick did was "ok". However, the "good" he did was before any of this ever took place. Michael Vick helped the Atlanta economy and the city of Atlanta more than any dog probably ever will. The day a dog will ever help boost a city's economy, feed and help educate underprivileged children, then I will value their life along the level of humans.

While as horrible as this is/was, do you judge someone's entire life over one act? If so I feel for your friends because heaven forbid they ever screw up in life.

 

[Heeko]

And again, why does that matter? Maybe he watched, maybe he pulled the trigger, maybe he just told his partners to do it and forgot about it. Since we agree that delegating these crimes makes no difference in his guilt or his character, it doesn't matter.

And you've also stated that he was doing the dogs a favor. So I ask again, why don't you condone doing an animal a favor?

It matters to the degree of involvement in these murders. That's what determines a person's sentence and that's what a court of law basis part of their decisions on.

I stated he was doing them a favor after the fact. Would you rather have the dog suffer for days bleeding to death with deep gashes and broken bones? YES he and his partners caused those gashes and broken bones through HIS and his partner's inhumane acts. Much like jockey's cause horses to break their legs through the kind gentle act of horse racing when they maliciously beat a horse with a whip for the enjoyment and gambling of humans. Maybe we should string them up for murder too?

 

[minerva]

I guess we agree to disagree. I've seen little kids mangled and chewed to bits who were doing nothing but playing outside. They weren't throwing anything at the dog and they weren't yelling at the dog. They were in their yard, on their property, playing like kids do and minding their own business. They didn't go and attack the dog, the dog decided to go and attack them. Just because the dog 'doesn't know any better' doesn't make it ok and it won't bring that little kid back. Going by your theory I guess the dog has it's reasons. Maybe it missed dinner.

First, you say dogs never attack for no good, random reason or financial profit. Is killing a child no good? If they have 'reason' for attacking the child, that proceeds the notion of reason itself with planning and calculation. Then you say they do not know any better? You can't have it both ways. It's like saying it's a dumb animal then saying it's smart enough to reason and calculate who and when it attacks.

I have never said what Vick did was "ok". However, the "good" he did was before any of this ever took place. While as horrible as this is/was, do you judge someone's entire life over one act? If so I feel for your friends because heaven forbid they ever screw up in life.

I don’t see what the fact that some dogs – because they were trained to be killer machines by some stupid - to say the least - people – attacked kids has anything to do with what this guy Michael Vicks did.
Dogs who attack kids will be put to sleep and though it’s not their fault, it’s what has to be done, because these dogs are dangerous.
But - the dogs Michael Vicks killed or helped kill – I really don’t care what EXACTLY it was he did – didn’t attack any kids – right? So what’s the point???

Oh - and all the good he has done? It almost moves me to tears. Don’t tell me you REALLY believe that every celebrity who’s donating and does charity work does that because they have SUCH a good heart. They do it, because their PR managers tell them to – I’m not saying all of them, I don’t know them and can’t judge them, but I bet most of them. If one of them would do it without making perfectly sure their ‘good deeds’ are well known by the media. I’d start believing that their intentions are genuine.

Anyway, NO MATTER what he has done in his life so far – what he did to these dogs speaks of a certain mindset. No matter if he personally killed them, just knew about it, or just didn’t prevent it – to be involved in making a living creature suffer like that is much more than just a ‘mistake’. You have to be pretty sick to just be able to do something like that.

I remember a thread a while ago about some teenagers torturing a pet to death – burning them or putting them in the microwave – not sure anymore what exactly it was, it was equally horrible though and I agree with lots of people who said back then, someone who’s capable of doing something like that to an animal is not far from doing something similar to a human being.

IMO all this has nothing to do with Vick’s celebrity status or race or upbringing or PETA involvement or animals being more important then people, or how violent human race in total is - it’s all about a buch of sick sadistic bastards who tortured an innocent living creature to death just for their own amusement and thats why everyone invloved in this needs to be punished as severly as law allows.

 

[Heeko]

But - the dogs Michael Vicks killed or helped kill – I really don’t care what EXACTLY it was he did – didn’t attack any kids – right? So what’s the point???

We don't know that. No one knows what exactly those dogs did or have not done. You're making an assumption - as well as using part of a conversation that was in response to the statement that dogs are incapable of attacking for no reason.

Oh - and all the good he has done? It almost moves me to tears. Don’t tell me you REALLY believe that every celebrity who’s donating and does charity work does that because they have SUCH a good heart. They do it, because their PR managers tell them to – I’m not saying all of them, I don’t know them and can’t judge them, but I bet most of them. If one of them would do it without making perfectly sure their ‘good deeds’ are well known by the media. I’d start believing that their intentions are genuine.

Michael Vick helped the Atlanta economy and the city of Atlanta more than any dog probably ever will. The day a dog will ever help boost a city's economy, feed and help educate underprivileged children, then I will value their life along the same level of humans.

I also find it interesting you state "I don't know them and can't judge them" yet you are judging Michael Vick's entire life on one incident. Also consider celebrities cannot control the media. If they could Princess Diana might still be alive.

Anyway, NO MATTER what he has done in his life so far – what he did to these dogs speaks of a certain mindset. No matter if he personally killed them, just knew about it, or just didn’t prevent it – to be involved in making a living creature suffer like that is much more than just a ‘mistake’. You have to be pretty sick to just be able to do something like that.

They have programs for this 'mindset' for inmates. It's called rehabilitation. Everything Vick has contributed in life is taken into consideration to determination of his sentence and value as a human.

I remember a thread a while ago about some teenagers torturing a pet to death – burning them or putting them in the microwave – not sure anymore what exactly it was, it was equally horrible though and I agree with lots of people who said back then, someone who’s capable of doing something like that to an animal is not far from doing something similar to a human being.

Once again, you're making another assumption based on personal opinion.

IMO all this has nothing to do with Vick’s celebrity status or race or upbringing or PETA involvement or animals being more important then people, or how violent human race in total is - it’s all about a buch of sick sadistic bastards who tortured an innocent living creature to death just for their own amusement and thats why everyone invloved in this needs to be punished as severly as law allows.

Your opinion to which you are rightfully entitled. Vick is going to be dealt with as the law allows. Shall we get the murder warrants for horse racing jockeys?

 

[Redmage]

While as horrible as this is/was, do you judge someone's entire life over one act?

It wasn't one act. As you know now that you've read the charges, this was a consistent pattern of behavior over more than five years.

It matters to the degree of involvement in these murders. That's what determines a person's sentence and that's what a court of law basis part of their decisions on.

Ah. I think you'll find at sentencing that the fact that Vick did everything except actually kill those dogs leads to very little difference in his sentence. He fronted the money, helped set up the fights, bought the land on which the dogs were raised (and killed), and agreed to the time and manner of their deaths. That's why the charge is called "conspiracy."

Fortunately though we aren't judges in a court of law. We're evaluating Mr Vick's moral worth. And in that "court" the fact that he had flunkies handle the dirtier tasks doesn't wipe a speck of manure off him.

I stated he was doing them a favor after the fact. Would you rather have the dog suffer for days bleeding to death with deep gashes and broken bones?

Great. So why don't you condone that then?

 

[Heeko]

It wasn't one act. As you know now that you've read the charges, this was a consistent pattern of behavior over more than five years.

And in those five years he also did a thousand other things too. The good of which is obviously being ignored because it didn't involve the life of animals that died. If you are going to base your evaluation of his moral character over five years, base it on everything he did and not just what conveniently involves a criminal act.

Ah. I think you'll find at sentencing that the fact that Vick did everything except actually kill those dogs leads to very little difference in his sentence. He fronted the money, helped set up the fights, bought the land on which the dogs were raised (and killed), and agreed to the time and manner of their deaths. That's why the charge is called "conspiracy."

Fortunately though we aren't judges in a court of law. We're evaluating Mr Vick's moral worth. And in that "court" the fact that he had flunkies handle the dirtier tasks doesn't wipe a speck of manure off him.

Thankfully our justice system evaluates us based on our lifetime and past record and not just the criminal acts to which we are charged. Mike Vick will serve his time for the crimes he committed.

Great. So why don't you condone that then?

Anyway you look at it those dogs were going to die. Be it inhumane as it was, I would rather die as they did than die a slow death over a course of days or even a week.

 

[Dussicar]

Don’t tell me you REALLY believe that every celebrity who’s donating and does charity work does that because they have SUCH a good heart. They do it, because their PR managers tell them to – I’m not saying all of them, I don’t know them and can’t judge them, but I bet most of them.

I'm not exactly sure how charity laws are set up in the States, but aren't donations also tax deductable too?

 

[ViperGTS]

A mistake is what someone does when they are ignorant of what they are doing, or if something happens outside of their control.

Vick knew exactly what he was doing. He knew it was wrong and he chose to do it anyway.

There is no defense for that.

 

[Heeko]

A mistake is what someone does when they are ignorant of what they are doing, or if something happens outside of their control.

Vick knew exactly what he was doing. He knew it was wrong and he chose to do it anyway.

There is no defense for that.

I disagree. If you are doing math and see "4 + 2" and write a "8", it means you made a mistake. It wasn't out of your control as you might have simply meant to write a 6 instead. It doesn't in any way conclude you are ignorant of math.

It simply means you messed up. That's why pencils have erasers and keyboards have backspace.

To say he knew exactly what he was doing is fair enough, but to say he knew it was wrong is an assumption. Maybe Vick actually didn't know it was against the law? I'm not saying he did and I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying maybe he didn't know.

In any case, ignorance of the law is no excuse and Vick will be sentenced for his actions.

 

[ViperGTS]

I disagree. If you are doing math and see "4 + 2" and write a "8", it means you made a mistake. It wasn't out of your control as you might have simply meant to write a 6 instead. It doesn't in any way conclude you are ignorant of math.

It simply means you messed up. That's why pencils have erasers and keyboards have backspace.

To say he knew exactly what he was doing is fair enough, but to say he knew it was wrong is an assumption. Maybe Vick actually didn't know it was against the law? I'm not saying he did and I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying maybe he didn't know.

In any case, ignorance of the law is no excuse and Vick will be sentenced for his actions.

Are you really serious?

If you see "4 + 2" and you put an "8," you are a fucking moron. NO ONE sees "4 + 2" and puts "8."

Keyboards have backspaces for MISTAKES. A mistake is when you mistype a word, like typing "origenal." Then you look at it and have one of two responses: "I did not know how to spell that word, therefore I spelled it incorrectly", and you go fix it, or "I did not type that word correctly because I mistakenly hit the wrong key," and you go fix it.

Michael Vick knew that murdering dogs was illegal. I defy you to show me one person older than the age of 21 that does NOT know that killing dogs is illegal, OR someone who does NOT know that killing dogs is illegal but would still kill a dog for fun anyway.

And if you do find someone like that, tell me if they have a criminal history.

 

[Heeko]

Are you really serious?

If you see "4 + 2" and you put an "8," you are a fucking moron. NO ONE sees "4 + 2" and puts "8."

Keyboards have backspaces for MISTAKES. A mistake is when you mistype a word, like typing "origenal." Then you look at it and have one of two responses: "I did not know how to spell that word, therefore I spelled it incorrectly", and you go fix it, or "I did not type that word correctly because I mistakenly hit the wrong key," and you go fix it.

Michael Vick knew that murdering dogs was illegal. I defy you to show me one person older than the age of 21 that does NOT know that killing dogs is illegal, OR someone who does NOT know that killing dogs is illegal but would still kill a dog for fun anyway.

And if you do find someone like that, tell me if they have a criminal history.

And NO ONE means to type "original" and types "origenal".

I used an analogy that even you could understand and yet you still missed the point. Then you contradicted your own previous statement by saying people mistakenly hit a wrong key, which was neither beyond their control nor from ignorance.

Listen to your own words, understand your own words and definitions if that's possible and then post a reasonable response. You far over estimate the US Educational System.

In some places they not only kill dogs and murder them, they also actually eat them.

Michael Vick has admitted full responsibility for his actions. He will be dealt with as the law allows.

 

[ShadowTklr]

No. I'd expect a better response from someone as intelligent as you Shadow. This sorry cop-out might hold if we weren't talking about a multi-millionaire. Look, if y'gonna plan to screw up in advance (and clearly Vick did,) you cover your ass, have a backup plan. If he'd had a brain (or a heart) or any of his sadistic co-morons did, they'd have had an on-call vetrinarian available 24/7 to humanely euthanize these dogs. Think how much better off this would have been for him if they'd had thought of this, maybe even allowed THIS to be caught on camera on top of what they actually caught him with.
Whole different scenario, isn't it?

Um...No. It's nowhere NEAR a different scenario, unless your argument is that since he was going to be a cruel tormentor, the least he could have done was make himself appear to be the sadist with a heart. Quite frankly, I'm surprised at you.

It is my position that Vick is a piece of shit, plain and simple. You can interject whatever mitigating conditions you wish, i.e.; "an on-call vetrinarian available 24/7 to humanely euthanize these dogs." (You were kidding when you wrote that, right?)

Oh, and trust me, stupidity is not tantamount to sadism and cruely. They are two completely separate things, just as wealth and intelligence are two completely different things.

So, my point is simple: Yes, find his ass guilty and mete out the appropriate punishment, and while you're at it, lets take advantage of the public's sudden conscience on this issue and shine a little more light on other EQUALLY atrocious acts of terrorism and violence comitted against animals everywhere.

With all the press time and dollars spent highlighting this one asshole's heartless and criminal acts, one might be left with the false assumption that his behavior was conditioned in a vacuum - it wasn't. Vick, in my opinion, is a simple bastard. His money gave him opportunity, not intelligence.

As a final note, I'll leave you with this thought. Professional football players are a different breed than you and I in the respect that their natural aggression is not arbitrarily encouraged; it is heightened and honed, deliberately. It is no wonder to me that we find so many of them at the forefront of national scrutiny involving acts of violence, threats, or other aggressive behavior OFF the field. Aggression is not a typical personality trait that can be turned on and off. But that's for another discussion.

I would have hoped you and I were saying the same thing, but after reading your post, it appears that your underlying concern is that he wasn't smart enough to prepare a contingency for his cowardly acts, rather than refraining from doing them in the first place. 😕

 

[isabeau]

i understand that killing dogs is wrong..i hadn't realized it was illegal...and why are there federal charges?