Misgivings about the current direction of gatherings in the Bay Area

[dvnc]

Aquafeline, does it make a difference to say that my rules were broken?

They were. Several times.

Again, I don't want to malign your friend, hence the statement that's she's no longer attending. Why you folks need to make this so negative is beyond my understanding.

I've removed hosts who crossed the line with a FAR smaller audience, and in only ONE instance of problem. For me, it's still events and their attendees first.

It doesn't matter to me if offense was intentional. Hosts are supposed to watch out for the room. Guests are told to the rules, and if they break them, they're removed from the events. Made to make nice to the acceptance of the offended. All of the offended. Without naming names, someone had to spend better than 6 months getting two 'lees to accept mail so that apologies could be acknowledged.

That incidence did not directly confront me, either.

 

[aprincejfk]

Wow!

Its been a few years since ive attended a gathering but i'm glad i faded out of the scene with all this nonsense going on. I know dave and karen, though they may not recall me, and most of the old school gathering attendees and never thought drama of this nature would hit this group. It is truly sad but I do hope when the smoke clears that everyone will still be friendly with one another. (by friendly i mean NO DRAMA! PERIOD!)

Take care and good luck all!

 

[Icycle]

He's not removing others from the list, so the first paragraph isn't an issue.

I'm afraid that isn't strictly true. Regardless of whatever disagreements may or may not exist between Dave and Karen, as nearly as I can tell I have done absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever. Yet I appear to have been removed from Dave's West Coast Gatherings mailing list, with neither notification nor explanation.

I can only guess that I'm somehow guilty by association, since I am married to Karen.

 

[AquaFeline]

Aquafeline, does it make a difference to say that my rules were broken?

They were. Several times.

Again, I don't want to malign your friend, hence the statement that's she's no longer attending. Why you folks need to make this so negative is beyond my understanding.

Yes, it does make a difference, because we'd rather have a benevolent listfather who's looking out for us rather than a listfather who's grinding his own axe. You, knowing you, take that as an assumption, and others who've known you for a long time know that, but others can't make that assumption.

And stuff happens, people break the rules. It doesn't mean they're a bad and evil person. At the same time you don't want someone breaking the rules at your events and I totally dig that.

 

[AquaFeline]

Its been a few years since ive attended a gathering but i'm glad i faded out of the scene with all this nonsense going on. I know dave and karen, though they may not recall me, and most of the old school gathering attendees and never thought drama of this nature would hit this group. It is truly sad but I do hope when the smoke clears that everyone will still be friendly with one another. (by friendly i mean NO DRAMA! PERIOD!)

Take care and good luck all!

I'm also hoping it will smooth out within a couple of months.

Haven't seen or heard from you since I moved out here... glad to hear you're still around, though sad that you feel better off not being involved.

 

[dvnc]

Salutations aprincejfk. Good to see you again. If after all of this announcement of my evils you're still down with getting together, do mail me. Would be cool t'see ya again!

 

[dvnc]

I'm afraid that isn't strictly true. Regardless of whatever disagreements may or may not exist between Dave and Karen, as nearly as I can tell I have done absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever. Yet I appear to have been removed from Dave's West Coast Gatherings mailing list, with neither notification nor explanation.

I can only guess that I'm somehow guilty by association, since I am married to Karen.

Guilt? No guilt. You're Karen's husband, and as such, I felt it rude to include you when she was no longer attending. If that's a mistake in your eyes, my apologies for any ill perceived. Wasn't the intent.

To be honest, sir, I hadn't thought you'd mistake where it's rude to remove someone's spouse and then invite them. That's just social behavior I learned LONG before there was a worldwide web.

Did you really WANT to attend something your wife was no longer to attend? I had, naturally, thought you'd hear from your wife where she wasn't to attend any longer. Hadn't thought you'd mistake that as anything but what it was for her.

Didn't see where it would be positive for ANYONE to attempt any divisive behavior.

Still don't.

 

[Icycle]

Guilt? No guilt. You're Karen's husband, and as such, I felt it rude to include you when she was no longer attending. If that's a mistake in your eyes, my apologies for any ill perceived. Wasn't the intent.

To be honest, sir, I hadn't thought you'd mistake where it's rude to remove someone's spouse and then invite them. That's just social behavior I learned LONG before there was a worldwide web.

Did you really WANT to attend something your wife was no longer to attend? I had, naturally, thought you'd hear from your wife where she wasn't to attend any longer. Hadn't thought you'd mistake that as anything but what it was for her.

Didn't see where it would be positive for ANYONE to attempt any divisive behavior.

Still don't.

The way I found out that I had been removed from the West Coast Gatherings mailing list was when someone told me about the recent message posted to the list, that stated Karen would be no longer hosting or attending West Coast Gatherings events. I had not received a copy of the message myself, so I was forced to assume that I had been removed from the West Coast Gatherings list.

While it is true that I am not likely to attend any tickling events that my wife is not welcome at, I would have greatly appreciated the courtesy of being notified that I was being removed from the list, rather than having to find out second hand.

 

[BellaRisa]

Um, what?

Excuse me,

None of this is my business, let me be the first to say that.

But I'm a hostess in the midwest, I've attended several quality WCGs back in da day (thank you Dave!), and I've been a member of the TK community for nearly a decade. I was going to just send Dave a PM, but frankly I'd like to say a few things publically:

To know Dave is to know that the man has the patience and forgiveness of a saint. He always, ALWAYS puts everyone and everything ahead of himself. You have to work damn hard to truly disappoint him, and even if you do he will *not* insult or chide you in front of others or tell tales out of school. If he honestly feels that it's in the best interest of those gatherings for which he is personally responsible that certain folk not be admitted, that's his choice and he does nothing on a whim. And if he'd prefer not to go into details publically because he feels they should come from others, that's his choice as well. The man would never blindly ban anyone. They know why, trust me. Whether they choose to tell *you* is up to them.

Folks, let it go. As host of Tamingwood, a spanking party group here in OH, I control my list and my parties. Occasionally someone needs to be banned, temporarily or permanently. It's my decision and I never take it lightly. And once my decision is made, members have the choice of trusting my judgement after years of giving them good and safe events, or protesting uselessly and ultimately leaving the group, soon to be replaced by others. It's that simple. I'm not saying folks shouldn't voice their concerns, but interrogation on this forum will get you nowhere and accomplish nothing. If you truly want to show respect and appreciation for the hosts that work so hard for you, it's easy: attend any and all events that suit you, host your own if you don't care for how the current hosts are functioning, and let the few folks directly involved in current issues deal with them.

Bella

 

[Strider]

We were not asked to choose between friends, but rather hosts.

Perhaps I'm misreading things, but I see no reason why folks can't be a member of as many groups as they want simultaneously.

 

[dvnc]

The way I found out that I had been removed from the West Coast Gatherings mailing list was when someone told me about the recent message posted to the list, that stated Karen would be no longer hosting or attending West Coast Gatherings events. I had not received a copy of the message myself, so I was forced to assume that I had been removed from the West Coast Gatherings list.

While it is true that I am not likely to attend any tickling events that my wife is not welcome at, I would have greatly appreciated the courtesy of being notified that I was being removed from the list, rather than having to find out second hand.

For what it's worth, man, I *am* sorry to have misread that situation. Was not my intent to leave you feeling thus. I apologize for this, and will remember this if ever I'm confronted with such a situation again.

I really did believe she'd talk with you about this. Apparently it wasn't deemed worthy of conversation.

 

[bellystrokes]

Perhaps I'm misreading things, but I see no reason why folks can't be a member of as many groups as they want simultaneously.

BINGO!!!!!!

 

[Redmage]

I really did believe she'd talk with you about this. Apparently it wasn't deemed worthy of conversation.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Icycle knew Lindy had been banned even before the announcement went out on the list. As I read it, he didn't know that he, himself had been banned until he heard about the announcement from someone else and realized that he was no longer on the distribution list.

 

[Redmage]

I still wonder why it's such a monumental deal that someone need be part of MY event.

I've been sitting this out until I could think of something useful to say. I don't think I can shed much light on any of the other issues in this whole unfortunate situation, but maybe I can help a little with this one at least.

I think there are a few reasons why this has taken on such a powerful life of it's own. First is what you might call "There but for the grace of God go I." When a decision like this comes down people like to feel as though they understand the reasons. This is partly so they can decide whether or not they agree - NOT because they think their opinions will affect the outcome, but because everyone likes to know that the groups they belong to reflect their values at least to some degree.

People also like to feel as though they understand a decision like this because if they don't then it becomes harder for them to feel sure that the same thing won't happen to them at some point. If they feel as though nothing they know can put the decision in context for them then the decision begins to feel arbitrary, and that feels unpredictable and worrisome. So they look for information to help put it all in perspective.

Another reason for the intensity here is a reflection on the success of your list, Dave. It's the main source for info on Bay area events, so while folks can take your suggestion to start other event lists they know the chances of success will be a lot better if they can get the word out to all who might be interested. I think if you offered to put an announcement and contact info for such a new venture on the WCG list then that would take some of the steam out of at least that aspect of the arguments here without compromising the privacy of the WCG list.

I think that when folks sense trouble in a group they care about the first impulse is always to look for a solution rather than just giving up and walking away. That's a very good thing: it shows that the group has done a good job and has given them something that they think is worth fighting for. Still there may come a time when what can be done has been done. Continuing the fight then only makes matters worse, and turns what might have been a parting of ways into a nasty wound that leaves much worse scars than it might have otherwise.

I might be wrong, but I think we've reached that point here. I think that all the information that will be forthcoming has come out, and that those who were hoping for more understanding will have to make the best decisions they can with whatever facts they have in hand now.

With all of this in mind, Dave, I need to ask you to remove me from the WCG list. As others have said, this is not a popularity contest, and I hope for the best for you and the list. I feel as though I've done all I personally can do to make things better, and I need to acknowledge that it hasn't been enough. I'd like to give you my personal apology for that, and wish you well.

 

[dvnc]

Thank you very much for your perspective here. I believe you've assessed this well, FWIW.

I will remove you from the list as you request.

 

[Bagelfather]

Ed's 10 Comments

I had originally told DVNC that I was not going to post to this thread because I did not want to empower those who are grinding axes or having pissing contests. When I talked to DVNC on the phone today I had only briefly scanned a few of the posts before I became disgusted and decided to not post anything else.

Let me clarify a few things that are being assumed or "demanded" to be told by me.

First off I am currently not hosting events. This is something that will probably change in the future. There is a lot of emotion going on and my calendar is BOOKED through the end of July to the point of I do not have time or energy to host an event. I could attend but really not host.

Secondly I found little interest in hosting the event when I put a lot of energy into it and got very little out of it. I have a wonderful lady that plays with me in regards to tickling on occasion and she is not opposed to me playing with others. However, the recent events have been not of the energy that I liked.

Third: I contacted DVNC originally because I was concerned about what was going on and wanted advice. I had no say in what his decision was. I could have jumped up and down and screamed to not ban someone etc., but it would not have mattered. So I can say I had nothing to do with that part.

Fourth: I will state for the record that I support the decision DVNC has made. This is his list. This is his group, party, shindig, baby, etc. It does not belong to the community, it is not a public thing, it is a private thing. Just as the Boy Scouts can decide not to have a gay scoutmaster DVNC has the right to run the events the way he wants to.

Fifth: I found out about Sacramento only a short time before it went down. It was all a matter of timing. My best guess is that DVNC went to a lot of trouble to revive Sac and then posted about it afterwards. Due to the controversy about issues with the San Jose group I am guessing he wanted to keep it on the low down to keep better control of things. Once again just because you are on the TMF or the WC gatherings list does not mean you are automatically invited or notified. There are no rights. I agree that the SAC issue may not have been handled in a more politically correct way but it has happened as it has happened.

Sixth: Any issues between my former co-host and myself are issues between us and WILL NOT be brought into public forum. If other people want to create rumors, speculate, bug me, etc. feel free to do so, I am just not going to be a part of it.

Seventh: I openly apologize for things that happened in MY HOME that offended ANYONE. WClist or Silicon Valley list, or what have you aside this is MY home and it is I who am responsible for the well being of my guests. If people at my home are made to feel uncomfortable or bad I take it personally. I wish I had known more about this sooner.

Eighth: I learned about the complaints within a VERY short time frame of the decision made by DVNC. I did not have any further advanced notice of this.

Nineth: Many people have a good point in stating that if we (the hosts) are not aware of problems or concerns we cannot address them. If I decide to host again in the future I would appreciate feedback (good or bad). If you feel that you are uncomfortable telling me directly I will be happy to find a third neutral party for you to correspond with.

Tenth: DVNC has always stated you can host anything you want and post it here. The West Coast Gatherings are just one list. LA broke off from WC Gatherings and ran their own show just fine. I really did not understand fully what DVNC was talking about regarding the control of the list until now.

I am not neutral in this, I am on MY side. I support DVNCs decision. I may not agree with each and every avenue of how it has been handled, terms used, etc., but I support the decision he has made. If that means some people don't want to talk to me or deal with me, oh well. If anyone has a problem with that, then that is YOUR problem. If anyone wishes to banter about my name I suggest you refrain as I have already stated all that needs to be stated from me at this time. I can host when I want, where I want, and with whom I want. Right now I choose no one and no where. If that changes you will know because I will post on the forum or go through the WC list depending on the situation.

Again I stress that I am only posting this now because my name keeps coming up and I have been pulled into this thread which only seems to serve as angry banter. These comments are being made because it is right for me and how I feel. I see a lot of people posting and responding but not reading what people are saying when they respond.

That is all.

 

[StevePerry4Ever]

Ok, i don't want to offend anyone but, this has got to be the stupidest thread on the entire forum. I only read the first and last page but it seems that everyone is just whining! He said this, you can't hang out with me, I don't like you anymore... HOLY CRAP! Everyone get over yourselves, your talking about tickle gatherings here. If you want to go to one, go, if not, don't go. Hell, you guys are lucky to be around tickle fetishists who want to gather, I live in McNowheresville and i take four hours to get to the nearest gathering. and i'm a poor college student, i can't afford the gas uch less flying out. Who cares who said what and what bobby did to billy, Forget gathering politics... we all like tickling, gather or don't gather, just don't argue about it!!!

 

[LindyHopper]

Hi Bella. Thank you for stopping by. A pair of outside eyes is often helpful.

You know I have great respect for you. I've only met you the once in person, but online at least, I've never seen you handle any situation with anything but the highest level of rationality and diplomacy. However, I feel I need to address the following:

The man would never blindly ban anyone. They know why, trust me. Whether they choose to tell *you* is up to them.

You may not know me as well as you know Dave, but I can tell you this much about me: I am not a liar. I have not said anything, to anyone, about this situation, that is either factually untrue or intentionally misleading. I have been honest about the gaps in my knowledge, and my frustration at being unable to fill them has been nothing but genuine.

And if he'd prefer not to go into details publically because he feels they should come from others, that's his choice as well.

Yes. Upon (admittedly belated) reflection, I can see that it could hardly be otherwise. As frustrating as it is for me to be faced with accusations that I can't see, I do understand some of dvnc's unwillingness to clarify things for me. Privacy is very important. What sucks is that for all I know, his only source of information in this matter is an account from one or two not-very-objective people. Personal grudges take hold in small communities like ours, and it's hard to know who to believe sometimes. Judgments are made through gossip alone. That's why I would have appreciated an opportunity to tell my side of the story.

I thought about taking that opportunity in this thread. I believe I finally understand what has happened here (the two offended 'lees that Dave mentioned on the previous page were a helpful clue), and believe me, the temptation to set the record straight is strong. But as I think about it, I realize that there is simply no way to tell this story in its proper context without revealing behavior that I'm sure the people involved don't want made public. As angry as I am about how this situation has been handled, laying everything out as I saw it happen just wouldn't be worth the ensuing destruction.

Ah well... you can't win 'em all. 😉 Time to move on. There are a lot of great people down here in the South Bay, and we can take our lessons from all this unpleasantness, and work to build something better. It's a bright, shining day for democracy.* I look forward to sharing it with you.

*Pardon my grandstanding. I get carried away sometimes. 😛

 

[Dave2112]

I just wanted to pop in and post to this for the same reason that Bella did. I'm not directly involved in the current "thing" that's going on, and take no sides here.

However, I have known Dave for quite some time...years. I had been to many a bondage gathering or BDSM event, but my first specific tickling gathering was put together in no small degree by Dave, all the way out here in New York. He was, I guess, "co-hosting" the SBG party in Albany, but truth be told, it would never have gone so well without his involvement. There was a large percentage at this gathering that were "newbies" to hosted events like this, and there was not one instant of discomfort or anything negative.

All I can say is I count Dave as one of my very small inner-circle of true friends within the community, and I would not be the same person (meaning as a community member) were it not for Dave. You will never find a more caring, honest and open person. Having not only attended functions with him, but having served as a member of the Staff of this site for going on six years with him, I have yet to see him make a decision that was not thought out fully and based completely on the good of the community. If there is anyone who completely and fully embodies all of the best apsects and the very essence of the tickling community as a whole, it is Dave. There are exactly two people I call "brother" in this community, and Dave is one of them.

 

[dvnc]

Wow, thanks Dave.

SBG was really Jen's deal. I just helped her get it off the ground, and cohosted there at the first one so she could enjoy some of it herself. Proper hosting does often take a body away from the fun.

 

[bellystrokes]

Just a point of clarification here:

Steph is not a host. Although the declared host of SAC, dvnc, will credit Steph for helping him out and bringing great energy.

One guy in the LA scene said it best: Bellystrokes organizes the party. Steph is the party. Love you goddess.

 

[steph]

LMAO!!
Back at ya m'lovely.

I can see where people might be confused I guess~I'm sort of the longest-running, noisiest and most consistent presence up here in town since Dan left but bellystrokes is correct. I am not the host of the Sactown gatherings, not now nor was I ever. It was Dan, Jan and tero when I joined here and now it's Dave.

Some of you are giving me too much power/credit, whatever you want to call it. I'm just me, a guest at these events. I hope that clears things for some of you.
XOXO

 

[Mimi]

Dave is one of the 'founding fathers' of the entire gathering community. He has been doing this longer than most of us have even been a part of the tk community. Almost all of the coast to coast gatherings that take place in this day and age are still based on the very foundations, rules and guidelines that Dave laid down many years ago. Every event I have ever hosted and attended has been parallel to his own set of standards for his own events. Why? Because his method has been tried and tested again and again and has proven itself as the gold standard for gatherings and events. If his rules and sanctions were that unfair or off base, then he would not have the respect he has in the ENTIRE gathering community, both national and international, and todays events around the world would not be based on the very standards he set down from the very beginning.

If I, for whatever reason, had to step away from hosting duties of my own events and I selected someone I thought to be trust-worthy to fill in for me, I would expect them to hold up every guideline I currently base my events on without question. If I then learned that they broke several rules of those very guidelines in which my events were based, and I was losing long standing regulars from my events because this person took the gatherings in a whole new direction that many found objectionable or offensive, then you can damn well bet I would remove their hosting priveledges immediately. It's still MY event, and MY reputation that's being damaged by their misconduct. And it's MY responsibility to get back in there and lead them back into their proper direction again.

I fully understand that there would be many who attend my events that actually preferred the new direction my substitute had taken them in. And that's fine...everyone has their own tastes and preferences. So I would strongly encourage them to start their own brand of events based on the new style of hosting and conduct. They don't ever have to step foot into one of my gatherings again if it's not their style. It's only MY events I expect to be governed under my rules. Anyone hosting their own party can do so under their own rules. And everyone wins then because attendees can choose which flavor of event pleases their palate more, and there's a better chance in fully enjoying your gathering experience by having these different options.

It's so very simple. I have my events, based on my rules and guidelines. You can have your events, based on your rules and guidelines. And everyone in the area can select which event style works better for them.

So why the hell is this turning into a playground brawl when the solution is sitting right there on the table for all to see and act on? This isn't rocket science.

 

[WhiteToad]

From what I gather Karen was banned, she doesn't know why she was banned, and no one is telling her the reason. If she's asking on here I don't see a problem with telling her on here.

 

[dvnc]

If by "banned" you mean she's no longer attending my events, this is true. She's no longer attending my events.

If she doesn't understand, it's between her and I. As she and I have already exchanged mails on this, and I've no further mails awaiting on this from her, it's resolved. I don't disclose such mails.

I do acknowledge where you and a few in this thread think this should be announced here. I disagree, hence it's not. My apologies to all this offends, as this is not my intention or desire. I don't wish to open private discussions for all. Mine is a private gathering. Much private data.

Part of why I have the attendee list I do is for precisely this reason. I keep people's private date private. This won't be changing.