• If you would like to get your account Verified, read this thread
  • The TMF is sponsored by Clips4sale - By supporting them, you're supporting us.
  • >>> If you cannot get into your account email me at [email protected] <<<
    Don't forget to include your username

The TMF is sponsored by:

Clips4Sale Banner

Science and Religion

Slander is defined as, "Words falsely spoken to damage the reputation of another." Until it can be proven false, opinion or otherwise, it is not slander.
True, but in order to prove its falseness, all you have to do is point out that they have no reasonable grounds for that position. You don't have to open up the books themselves, all you need to prove is that there is no history of theft within their ranks, prove that there is no solid grounds for that accusation. Not McCarthyistic stance of "they have to be hiding something!"


If he can't do it, then he isn't all-powerful. Science is the study of the Universe and all things within. In terms of tangible, proven, and logical concepts, it is supreme.

It's not a question of can He do it, but a question of should He do it again. And the answer to that is very clearly no. You're trying to define a God that you can order around. If He really is God, then do this or that! Satan tried that in the desert with Jesus, and was rebuked. What you're asking is the same thing. And you will be denied the satisfaction the same way Satan was.
 
Interesting... I follow scientific theory and progress while still remaining spiritual. If I follow the logic that if no matter what factors are present that science and religion can not co-exist peacefully then why is it possible for me to have the opinion that I do?

If you live in a completely black and white world where every little problem has a definite cause then sure you can go ahead and state that opinion as such a basic fact that all debate on it is meaningless. Unfortunately, the world is far more complex than that. In the world of sociological cause and effect there are often contributing factors which influence the way people act. You can't say that all religious people hate science any more than you can say that all people who value science hate religion.

Sure there are some instances where science and religion has not existed peacefully, but that is not the end all be all of all discussion on the topic.

"Well he started it! No she started it!" That is what this whole debate boils down to. 😉

Your view of 'science' is incredibly narrow. All observable and testable things are part of science. Everything you see, everything you do, everything you feel can be evaluated with Science on some level. Sociology, Psychology, these things are all sciences in their own right.

Faith itself can not be observed, tested, or measured. The results of faith can, but not the thing itself. For that reason, Faith and Science will never co-exist peacefully; because Science is based around tangible, logical observations, while faith is based around illogical, unreasonable, subjective feelings.
 
True, but in order to prove its falseness, all you have to do is point out that they have no reasonable grounds for that position. You don't have to open up the books themselves, all you need to prove is that there is no history of theft within their ranks, prove that there is no solid grounds for that accusation. Not McCarthyistic stance of "they have to be hiding something!"

This is poor, and incorrect logic. Religions aren't proven false just because there are no reasonable grounds for believing them, are they? It won't be proven false unless there is absolutely undeniable proof that it is false. As long as the Salvation Army continues to hide it's fiscal actions, there will be no undeniable proof.

It's not a question of can He do it, but a question of should He do it again. And the answer to that is very clearly no. You're trying to define a God that you can order around. If He really is God, then do this or that! Satan tried that in the desert with Jesus, and was rebuked. What you're asking is the same thing. And you will be denied the satisfaction the same way Satan was.

If it will undeniably prove his existence, then why shouldn't he? There is nothing clear at all about that choice. You can't pretend to know the intentions of some divine being that you have never seen or heard before. If God won't acknowledge the laws of Science, then Science won't acknowledge God.
 
If it will undeniably prove his existence, then why shouldn't he? There is nothing clear at all about that choice. You can't pretend to know the intentions of some divine being that you have never seen or heard before. If God won't acknowledge the laws of Science, then Science won't acknowledge God.
God the "system" is the laws of science. There is only God. Everything else is virtual reality simulations.
 
God the "system" is the laws of science. There is only God. Everything else is virtual reality simulations.

Now this is golden. Assumptions backed by what? Misterpedi... Does god talk too you, and tell you this is true?
 
God the "system" is the laws of science. There is only God. Everything else is virtual reality simulations.

This is even more baseless than religion. There is nothing to suggest that reality is a simulation.
 
So, looking at the history of religion and God. It is a gigantic bloody, gory, and pornographic movie. I like those kind of movies, too... I guess maybe monotheists/polytheists, and atheists/agnostics have some common ground.
 
God the "system" is the laws of science. There is only God. Everything else is virtual reality simulations.

This is even more baseless than religion. There is nothing to suggest that reality is a simulation.

A simulated universe is when your watching a movie...
LOL...It might seem silly to many who first hear it, but Digital Physics is growing.
In the future this will be the accepted model of reality, not the Newtonian model of an objective universe.
 
LOL...It might seem silly to many who first hear it, but Digital Physics is growing.
In the future this will be the accepted model of reality, not the Newtonian model of an objective universe.

Digital Physics is a theory run amok. Yes, physics can be simulated. That does not mean that reality is a simulation.
When you can get me undeniable proof that everything around us is a digital simulation comprised by some collosal computer, then I will believe you.

The whole idea is almost as silly as Scientology.
 
Your view of 'science' is incredibly narrow. All observable and testable things are part of science. Everything you see, everything you do, everything you feel can be evaluated with Science on some level. Sociology, Psychology, these things are all sciences in their own right.

Faith itself can not be observed, tested, or measured. The results of faith can, but not the thing itself. For that reason, Faith and Science will never co-exist peacefully; because Science is based around tangible, logical observations, while faith is based around illogical, unreasonable, subjective feelings.

My view of science is narrow? Wrong, but interesting.

Your view of the interaction between faith and reason is what is narrow. You are the one placing them in constant conflict. Just because you interpret something one way, does not give you the right to claim that view in others.
 
My view of science is narrow? Wrong, but interesting.

Your view of the interaction between faith and reason is what is narrow. You are the one placing them in constant conflict. Just because you interpret something one way, does not give you the right to claim that view in others.

My view of the interaction between faith and reason is what is narrow? Wrong, and not very interesting; I see this argument a lot.

Reason = A rational motive for a belief or action.
Faith = A subjective belief unsupported by rational evidence.

Their fundamental definitions are what's placing them in conflict. These are widely accepted definitions, and are not up for interpretation. Reason is rational, faith is irrational. I don't understand why people still argue that these things are false.
 
Digital Physics is a theory run amok. Yes, physics can be simulated. That does not mean that reality is a simulation.
When you can get me undeniable proof that everything around us is a digital simulation comprised by some collosal computer, then I will believe you.

A simulated reality is not that far fetched. Einstein himself said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistant one." And when working on his Unified field theory, he wrote to his colleague and famous scientist, David Bohm " One has to find a possibility to avoid the continum, together with space and time altogether, but I have not the slightest idea what kind of elementary concepts could be used in such a theroy."

He almost had this thing nailed to the wall , but back in 1954 noone had any concept of Digital, so his work fell by the wayside. Now in the computer age, scientists like Dr. Edward Fredkin and Nick Bostrum are heading the digital Revolution.

I don't know if the singularity stems from a computer, we will never know because we can't get outside the system to explore it. I do know this is gaining support by many physicists, because the model is a better fit and explains much more about reality than the archaic model we presently use, which is the universe is objective.
 
Last edited:
Digital Physics is a theory run amok. Yes, physics can be simulated. That does not mean that reality is a simulation.
When you can get me undeniable proof that everything around us is a digital simulation comprised by some collosal computer, then I will believe you.

The whole idea is almost as silly as Scientology.

A simulated reality is not that far fetched. Einstein himself said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistant one." And when working on his Unified field theory, he wrote to his colleague and famous scientist, David Bohm " One has to find a possibility to avoid the continum, together with space and time altogether, but I have not the slightest idea what kind of elementary concepts could be used in such a theroy."

He almost had this thing nailed to the wall , but back in 1954 noone had any concept of Digital, so his work fell by the waste side. Now in the computer age, scientists like Dr. Edward Fredkin and Nick Bostrum are heading the digital Revolution.

I don't know if the singularity stems from a computer, we will never know because we can't get outside the system to explore it. I do know this is gaining support by many physicists, because the model is a better fit and explains much more about reality than the archaic model we presently use, which is the universe is objective.

What a 180 from religion! Wow! You people are not monotheists of the Christian persuasion, but socialistic Star Trekkers from a reality that doesn't exist. What's next? The Wrath of Kahn...
 
A simulated reality is not that far fetched. Einstein himself said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistant one." And when working on his Unified field theory, he wrote to his colleague and famous scientist, David Bohm " One has to find a possibility to avoid the continum, together with space and time altogether, but I have not the slightest idea what kind of elementary concepts could be used in such a theroy."

He almost had this thing nailed to the wall , but back in 1954 noone had any concept of Digital, so his work fell by the waste side. Now in the computer age, scientists like Dr. Edward Fredkin and Nick Bostrum are heading the digital Revolution.

I don't know if the singularity stems from a computer, we will never know because we can't get outside the system to explore it. I do know this is gaining support by many physicists, because the model is a better fit and explains much more about reality than the archaic model we presently use, which is the universe is objective.

Let's step away from philosophy for a brief moment, and get back to Science. What evidence is there to suggest any of this? Show me some facts, some models, some charts, that imply that our Universe is somehow being simulated.

Just like my viewpoint with Religion, I vehemently refuse to believe anything that isn't supported by cold, hard evidence.

Tell me why this model is a better fit? A program capable of running our Universe would have to be capable of handling trillions upon trillions of terabytes of data just for every human being. That doesn't include every other organic life form on JUST this planet.

Also, you're taking Einstein a little too literally with that quote.
 
Tell me why this model is a better fit? A program capable of running our Universe would have to be capable of handling trillions upon trillions of terabytes of data just for every human being. That doesn't include every other organic life form on JUST this planet.
.
The system has infinate amounts of Data. Reality is just a data stream of information and we just interpret it to form our reality. Consciousness is the only constant. Everything else is virtual and probalistic.

The way I try to understand the concept is to think of World of Warcraft. Its being run on your computer and you can interact in the game. Its a multi-player game with landscapes, rules, life and death, etc, just like life, although it is a primative and slow system as compared to a much more sophisticated one, like a system that runs our universe at Delta T 10 to the minus 44.
Its also a highly evolved system that renders every lifeform, every rock, tree etc, although, like any virtual reality it would only need to provide those physical objects when observed.

It really explains much more, like why there is death and suffering, why there is injustice,crimes, Wars etc. What OBEs and NDE's are about, UFO's, the Paranormal,Bigfoot etc.
 
Look, the fact of the matter is, you are not going to get me to believe anything until you can come up with proof. Ideas are fine, but they don't prove anything; they're only concepts.
 
Look, the fact of the matter is, you are not going to get me to believe anything until you can come up with proof. Ideas are fine, but they don't prove anything; they're only concepts.

I'm not asking you to believe me at all. I'm asking you to stay skeptical. It may ring with some truth for you one day or it may not.
 
I'm not asking you to believe me at all. I'm asking you to stay skeptical. It may ring with some truth for you one day or it may not.

The fact that I work with Science forces me to be skeptical. I'm always open to new ideas that may be true.

However, I will not accept anything that is not reinforced with concrete evidence. If there is undeniable proof at some point that Digital Physics is true, or that a God exists, then I will have very little problem accepting that; the thing is though, I find it highly unlike that we will find either of those things.
 
My view of the interaction between faith and reason is what is narrow? Wrong, and not very interesting; I see this argument a lot.

Reason = A rational motive for a belief or action.
Faith = A subjective belief unsupported by rational evidence.

Their fundamental definitions are what's placing them in conflict. These are widely accepted definitions, and are not up for interpretation. Reason is rational, faith is irrational. I don't understand why people still argue that these things are false.

The point which you are trying to extrapolate from this observation is that if one person has their core values set by their faith and another has their core values set by pure reason that they will always be in conflict. I am telling you that this is not the case. How can I make this point any simpler?. It is not the rationality or irrationality of the philosophical viewpoints. It is the people involved and the chaos of life itself which set people in conflict and not abstract belief systems. It doesn't matter what the persons belief system happens to be. If the person wants to be a sociopath then the person is going to be a sociopath.
 
Before I postulate my awesome idea, I'm going to rip your statement to shreds.

1. Sociopaths don't "choose" to be sociopaths.
2. If conflicts didn't arise over abstract beliefs, please explain the crusades, witch burnings, 9/11, 7/7, etc, etc, etc.

I'd also like to throw this across knowing full well it has no bearing on the subject at hand, but it seems to be the common tactic of faith-based people to use quotations from famous people for arbitrary reasons:

"But since the devil's bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she's wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil's greatest whore."

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason."

~Martin Luther

Anyway, moving on...

Super cool idea: So I think this discussion is going nowhere and is an eyesore in the general discussion forum, and possibly serves only to alienate other members. What if we took this to our personal TT blogs instead? I would normally suggest we all STFU and take this to IM, but that would become an even worse cluster-fuck so out of hand that nothing would get solved. Yea or nay?
 
Last edited:
2. If conflicts didn't arise over abstract beliefs, please explain the crusades, witch burnings, 9/11, 7/7, etc, etc, etc.

Osama Bin Laden explicitly gave three reasons for the september 11th attack. These were - aid to Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, military occupation of Saudi Arabia and the blockade of Iraq which killed at least half a million children. While religion clearly played a role here, a secularist can be just as opposed to those things and just as easily hit on a military solution, so religion is a contributing but neither necessary nor sufficient factor.

Similar things go for 7/7, the crusaders looted a hell of a lot of gold and I have little doubt that even the papacy was motivated more by the desire for wealth and power by piety. Some good evidence for this is the fact that the crusaders looted the city of Constantinople, supposedly an ally and a Christian city albeit the wrong type.
 
You're telling me that like I don't already know. It's easier if I just quote Seneca to explain how I feel:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
 
You're telling me that like I don't already know. It's easier if I just quote Seneca to explain how I feel:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

but that doesn't add up with your previously stated position, unless i've misunderstood it.

before you seemed to be saying that people like Bin Laden are guided by their religious fanaticism, now it seems you're saying he was only cynically manipulating the religious to achieve earthly ends.

Anyway there's ample evidence that Seneca was wrong - George Bush and Sarah Palin appear to genuinely believe their religion and are clearly ruling class.

Dick Cheney has not to my knowledge ever made a big deal about being Christian and so seems likely to be firmly secularist. He and George Bush appear to have very different attitudes to religion, yet their policies are identical. Religion here has played no role at all.

What's more the "common people" have frequently found religion to be useful, e.g. early Christianity, liberation theology during the 1980's, Islam and Christianity in the civil rights struggle, Buddhism in the fight against the US occupation of Vietnam, Islam in Sudanese resistance to the British empire, Christianity in the Revolutionary war in the USA. While religion does usually play a reactionary role, helping the ruling class, we can't make any clear-cut statements like Seneca does.

Also the fact that he regards common people and the wise as being mutually exclusive categories hardly paints him in a good light.

But even discounting that, wouldn't one say that (to stay in the Ancient world) Marcus Aurelius was wise? How about Akhenaten? Both of them were clearly wise, both of them were rulers, both of them devotedly religious and both of them in fact found religion an impediment to their rule, Akhenaten especially would have had a far easier time as a cynical manipulating unbeliever.

tl;dr - Seneca too simplistic and also a classist reactionary
 
The point which you are trying to extrapolate from this observation is that if one person has their core values set by their faith and another has their core values set by pure reason that they will always be in conflict. I am telling you that this is not the case. How can I make this point any simpler?. It is not the rationality or irrationality of the philosophical viewpoints. It is the people involved and the chaos of life itself which set people in conflict and not abstract belief systems. It doesn't matter what the persons belief system happens to be. If the person wants to be a sociopath then the person is going to be a sociopath.

No, they will be in pure conflict, because their core values determine how they make decisions. Someone who uses reason as their belief system will make decisions off of the evidence around them, and those of faith will make decisions based off of their personal feelings, without evidence to back it up; religion is proof enough of that.

Of course, this is going under the assumption that they purely live under these values, without using the other set of values at any point in time. Yes, two people using faith to solve their problems will get along, and two people using reason will also get along. However, there aren't many people to base that off of. Nobody is purely objective, and nobody is purely subjective, so I don't know who you are to say that they would ever get along. Until the definitions of reason and faith change, the people living by those definitions won't get along. It doesn't get any more plain and simple than that.
 
What's New

9/21/2024
Visit the TMF Welcome forum and take a second to say hello to us!
Tickle Experiment
Door 44
Live Camgirls!
Live Camgirls
Streaming Videos
Pic of the Week
Pic of the Week
Congratulations to
*** brad1701 ***
The winner of our weekly Trivia, held every Sunday night at 11PM EST in our Chat Room
Back
Top