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nessonite1
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*dies laughing* 😛
Kalamos
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And... during the attack to Jabrow/Jaburo, the "vanilla" GMs sported articulated skirt plates, while, during the battles of Solomon and A Bao A Qu, they had fixed one-piece skirts.
And... nowhere in the tech fluff I could find a reason why for this.
...
And... nowhere in the tech fluff I could find a reason why for this.
...
His Divine Shadow
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Jaburo WAS the headquarters of the Federation, so it stands to reason that their contingent of mobile suits would have special modifications. I can't think of any reason FOR those modifications, but doesn't every ruler/organization/government keep elite/special troops at their main bases?
Celtic_Emperor
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@ Ghost Host- Yes, thats for capitalizing on the point I didn't have to make, in that Palpatine's best troops are in fact his royal guard contingents. Theres not much more work and effort you can get out of a stormtrooper, they don't go through the same type or same level of training that the emperor's personal agents do.
While they may be better shots and have better individual squads than other stormtroopers, its safe to say that the ground forces deployed against the rebels were by no means the best Palpatine had to offer.
As for the designer of the first Death Star, you mean Bevel right? I actually haven't read any of the novels so I don't know what happened to him. All I know is that he's a scientific genius who was hired to create many of the weopons of war for the empire, including the Death Star.
@ Ness- Yeah, I never want Love Hina to be over, especially during the climax where Motoko becomes more forward with her feelings and blossoms completely. Its really a shame.
But fortunately for me, my undying love for this series and it's characters enables me to read and watch it over and over again without that original sense of newness and anticipation being gone. I sure hope that when you finish it, you'll get the same feeling that I have. Lets be Love Hina otakus together! 😀
While they may be better shots and have better individual squads than other stormtroopers, its safe to say that the ground forces deployed against the rebels were by no means the best Palpatine had to offer.
As for the designer of the first Death Star, you mean Bevel right? I actually haven't read any of the novels so I don't know what happened to him. All I know is that he's a scientific genius who was hired to create many of the weopons of war for the empire, including the Death Star.
@ Ness- Yeah, I never want Love Hina to be over, especially during the climax where Motoko becomes more forward with her feelings and blossoms completely. Its really a shame.
But fortunately for me, my undying love for this series and it's characters enables me to read and watch it over and over again without that original sense of newness and anticipation being gone. I sure hope that when you finish it, you'll get the same feeling that I have. Lets be Love Hina otakus together! 😀
XaviarRkR
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Wait, that's it! I know why it buged me (going back to post one)
The lack of observational skills! That's it! I am bugged by the inability of some to see what is blatently obvious given most of the facts (of any situation). Myself probably included.
The lack of observational skills! That's it! I am bugged by the inability of some to see what is blatently obvious given most of the facts (of any situation). Myself probably included.
Kalamos
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Something I noticed while watching an anime parody - Minipato, to be exact - is the fact most anime, toons, and tv movie usually are not just the brainchild of a single talented individual.
Authors are usually limited by budget and available resources; producers - especially producers of merchandise - get a word, two, often many more, in a given show.
So, most shows are not something as consistent or well thought as fans usually expect them to be.
Sometimes producers do manage to steer authors in a given direction. For example, when working on Grandizer/Grendizer, Go Nagai was expressely asked by Bandai to revise the looks of his robot, so the toy figures would be more balanced than the previously released Tranzor/Mazinger.
Sometimes puns do work their way into shows; sometimes is just writer's block.
Take MS Gundam's chief "villain" Casval Zum Deikun: the poor sod's been stranded with really silly psedonyms, from Char Aznable [based on french musican's name, Charles Azanavour] to Quattro Vagina [and we're lucky they didn't name him Four Pussy - BUT, a female char is actually named "Four"...].
Sometimes authors go back to their works, and revise them. Lucas did it on Star Wars. Tomino did it too on Gundam, trying to iron the kinks out from the series.
But, all in all, these are just tv shows... producers don't always realise how seriously fans do take them. 🙂
Authors are usually limited by budget and available resources; producers - especially producers of merchandise - get a word, two, often many more, in a given show.
So, most shows are not something as consistent or well thought as fans usually expect them to be.
Sometimes producers do manage to steer authors in a given direction. For example, when working on Grandizer/Grendizer, Go Nagai was expressely asked by Bandai to revise the looks of his robot, so the toy figures would be more balanced than the previously released Tranzor/Mazinger.
Sometimes puns do work their way into shows; sometimes is just writer's block.
Take MS Gundam's chief "villain" Casval Zum Deikun: the poor sod's been stranded with really silly psedonyms, from Char Aznable [based on french musican's name, Charles Azanavour] to Quattro Vagina [and we're lucky they didn't name him Four Pussy - BUT, a female char is actually named "Four"...].
Sometimes authors go back to their works, and revise them. Lucas did it on Star Wars. Tomino did it too on Gundam, trying to iron the kinks out from the series.
But, all in all, these are just tv shows... producers don't always realise how seriously fans do take them. 🙂
Celtic_Emperor
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Yeah, especially if its considered part of the canon or official lore, Kalamos. Creators often get blasted for giving in or compromising.
With anime however, people are starting to accept the different changes, as anime, that is, japanese anime, isn't strictly about the japanese people anymore. There is a growing western influence in alot of popular animes today and some characters main characters are not japanese at all, or are only partially, and as more and more american and european artists and voice talent are breaking out into this business and surpassing even some of the greatest japanese artists, it really does change the dynamic of how anime is made.
While the original script is honored as best as it can be, some things have to be changed for any number of reasons. People often complain that with dubbing its never accurate. Well, sometimes, word for word, it cannot be as its not possible to translate it completely word for word. Alot of fans don't realize this and everything else that factors into it. Therees a slew of animes that have been wonderfully translated and dubbed, though purists refuse to acknowledge them and prefer their subtitles, which is all fine and dandy too.
Anime isn't a thing, its a lifeforce really, and so many young artists are gravitating toward it. Several american companies draw in this style and produce their own works. Its only a matter of time when we see an american company create their own anime series with nothing but english influence. The europeans will follow suit.
I look forward to these days, as part time, maybe full, I'd like to work for such a company and perhaps someday be at the head of one, or have one of my own. The dream is now possible because of this friendly merger between Japan and the U.S.
While we could have taken it and did whatever we wanted with it, since style cannot be copyrighted (to the best of my knowledge anyway) we respected the origin of this genre and by working with the japanese as opposed to anything else, they're working with us in return.
But again, eventually even this will not be necessary as soon as american companies produce their own shows.
The only regret that I have is that the japanese will be forgotten, as if we got what we wanted from them, its now ours, etc. They were the inspiration however, so I also don't think it would be wrong to claim it as ours once we've gotten that far.
Alot of fans have doubts about whether or not americans can do as well with this genre the way the japanese have. To be quite frank however, we can do better, far better, because we are more diverse and open to ideas as a people than they are. The very structure of their society has limited them in a number of ways, and in some ways, they are still breaking out of their shell. Not necessarily a good or bad thing.
I just don't want to see us smash them and break their business and profits. As doubtful as it may seem to some people, the roles might actually be reversed someday, where it is the JAPANESE who are request from US permission and rights to dub our anime into japanese and work with branches over there and have them send their professionals to assist us.
For a complete turn-about like this to happen would be quite humbling to the japanese people, perhaps even embarassing. As an american and artist I want us to succeed, but not at the price of any loss of dignity of the japanese people.
We're a richer, stronger, more charismatic nation and everyone wants to do business with us for their own benefit. This is why the japanese allowed us to become involved with anime to begin with, because of the revenues that would open up to them abroad and the billion dollar sales they would attain through us.
If some day the tables are turned, I wonder how it will leave Japan. They've already faced financial instability before. Anime is actually a very huge chuck of their economy, as it is part of their pop culture.
We have the potential to turn masters into servants. As a person who has respect for alot of these original authors, creators, music composers, voice talent, and character designers, its an awkward feeling and one I haven't sorted out yet. Hopefully I won't have to unless I go pro.
With anime however, people are starting to accept the different changes, as anime, that is, japanese anime, isn't strictly about the japanese people anymore. There is a growing western influence in alot of popular animes today and some characters main characters are not japanese at all, or are only partially, and as more and more american and european artists and voice talent are breaking out into this business and surpassing even some of the greatest japanese artists, it really does change the dynamic of how anime is made.
While the original script is honored as best as it can be, some things have to be changed for any number of reasons. People often complain that with dubbing its never accurate. Well, sometimes, word for word, it cannot be as its not possible to translate it completely word for word. Alot of fans don't realize this and everything else that factors into it. Therees a slew of animes that have been wonderfully translated and dubbed, though purists refuse to acknowledge them and prefer their subtitles, which is all fine and dandy too.
Anime isn't a thing, its a lifeforce really, and so many young artists are gravitating toward it. Several american companies draw in this style and produce their own works. Its only a matter of time when we see an american company create their own anime series with nothing but english influence. The europeans will follow suit.
I look forward to these days, as part time, maybe full, I'd like to work for such a company and perhaps someday be at the head of one, or have one of my own. The dream is now possible because of this friendly merger between Japan and the U.S.
While we could have taken it and did whatever we wanted with it, since style cannot be copyrighted (to the best of my knowledge anyway) we respected the origin of this genre and by working with the japanese as opposed to anything else, they're working with us in return.
But again, eventually even this will not be necessary as soon as american companies produce their own shows.
The only regret that I have is that the japanese will be forgotten, as if we got what we wanted from them, its now ours, etc. They were the inspiration however, so I also don't think it would be wrong to claim it as ours once we've gotten that far.
Alot of fans have doubts about whether or not americans can do as well with this genre the way the japanese have. To be quite frank however, we can do better, far better, because we are more diverse and open to ideas as a people than they are. The very structure of their society has limited them in a number of ways, and in some ways, they are still breaking out of their shell. Not necessarily a good or bad thing.
I just don't want to see us smash them and break their business and profits. As doubtful as it may seem to some people, the roles might actually be reversed someday, where it is the JAPANESE who are request from US permission and rights to dub our anime into japanese and work with branches over there and have them send their professionals to assist us.
For a complete turn-about like this to happen would be quite humbling to the japanese people, perhaps even embarassing. As an american and artist I want us to succeed, but not at the price of any loss of dignity of the japanese people.
We're a richer, stronger, more charismatic nation and everyone wants to do business with us for their own benefit. This is why the japanese allowed us to become involved with anime to begin with, because of the revenues that would open up to them abroad and the billion dollar sales they would attain through us.
If some day the tables are turned, I wonder how it will leave Japan. They've already faced financial instability before. Anime is actually a very huge chuck of their economy, as it is part of their pop culture.
We have the potential to turn masters into servants. As a person who has respect for alot of these original authors, creators, music composers, voice talent, and character designers, its an awkward feeling and one I haven't sorted out yet. Hopefully I won't have to unless I go pro.
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Celtic_Emperor
3rd Level White Feather
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Probably...😛
No, I'm serious. If we can beat them at their own "game" so to speak and simply outdo them down the line, there will be no need for american consumers, businesses, etc., to invest into japanese animation and Japan will be poorer for it. Only die-hard fans of the japanese cultural aspects of anime are going to sustain it, if thats even possible without U.S intervention. And thats not consider americans who who/could make a series that does have existing elements in it and still likes the japanese cultural influences. Thats less incentive to want your anime straight from the Japan, since there are american creators who like it just as much as they do.
While japanese animation will certainly not die out, as it was created originally for the japanese by the japanese, it will once again be isolated to Japan, and while fans from abroad may want access to this still, investors and companies are far less likely to stock up on it and it will remain as "imported" merchandize rather than "domesticated". We won't even need to use terms like that anymore. If we can offer the same exact thing, but its american made I don't think a whole lot of people are going to care to pay extra for their anime simply because it was drawn and made by japanese people. And then theres the japanese people themselves to consider. Japan so closely mimmicks the U.S's pop culture and what if their anime was replaced with ours and it became 50/50 simply because THAT many people like our stuff? Do you have any idea how many people would be put out of a job over there because of this? They would migrate over here like turncoats leaving not enough talent to sustain their anime and there would be less and less incentive to get into the business over there isimply because its being undersold and sideswiped by our anime.
The North American market could single handedly deal a crushing blow to Japan by simply cutting it out of the equation.
I'm not sure whether to be hopeful or angry. On the one hand, it gives american artists like myself, that like this genre and style of drawing a future. But on the other hand its like cutting Japan's d*ck off and shoving it up it's own a$$ and saying "screw yourself, you ain't gettin' a dime!" Something like this wouldn't just affect anime either, it would affect several other aspects of Japan too.
LOL, I mean come on, thats just not cool! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!
No, I'm serious. If we can beat them at their own "game" so to speak and simply outdo them down the line, there will be no need for american consumers, businesses, etc., to invest into japanese animation and Japan will be poorer for it. Only die-hard fans of the japanese cultural aspects of anime are going to sustain it, if thats even possible without U.S intervention. And thats not consider americans who who/could make a series that does have existing elements in it and still likes the japanese cultural influences. Thats less incentive to want your anime straight from the Japan, since there are american creators who like it just as much as they do.
While japanese animation will certainly not die out, as it was created originally for the japanese by the japanese, it will once again be isolated to Japan, and while fans from abroad may want access to this still, investors and companies are far less likely to stock up on it and it will remain as "imported" merchandize rather than "domesticated". We won't even need to use terms like that anymore. If we can offer the same exact thing, but its american made I don't think a whole lot of people are going to care to pay extra for their anime simply because it was drawn and made by japanese people. And then theres the japanese people themselves to consider. Japan so closely mimmicks the U.S's pop culture and what if their anime was replaced with ours and it became 50/50 simply because THAT many people like our stuff? Do you have any idea how many people would be put out of a job over there because of this? They would migrate over here like turncoats leaving not enough talent to sustain their anime and there would be less and less incentive to get into the business over there isimply because its being undersold and sideswiped by our anime.
The North American market could single handedly deal a crushing blow to Japan by simply cutting it out of the equation.
I'm not sure whether to be hopeful or angry. On the one hand, it gives american artists like myself, that like this genre and style of drawing a future. But on the other hand its like cutting Japan's d*ck off and shoving it up it's own a$$ and saying "screw yourself, you ain't gettin' a dime!" Something like this wouldn't just affect anime either, it would affect several other aspects of Japan too.
LOL, I mean come on, thats just not cool! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!
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Kalamos
Level of Lemon Feather
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Mmm... I am a fan of European Union and I could object about US beating somebody... 😉
BUT...
Speaking of Japan Animation, the equation wouldn't work for several reasons.
Anime is not about animation alone.
It is not only style, but atmospheres, culture.
American or Canadian made anime is "stock"; it imitates a foreign style, without really being part of it.
I am no fan of Japan anime; I do like mecha anime because I like mecha to begin with, so I like Japan mecha too.
But I can say Japan mecha revolve around plots and atmospheres completely stranger to American thought and outlook.
[Just check Gasaraki, for example...]
American anime would need to cease being American, before being able to imitate Japan anime.
And then, it would make no sense to imitate something, since American anime would turn out to be an empty shell.
Also...
Japan anime draws its revenues from merchandise, so, animation alone wouldn't be enough to win the market over.
Let us not forget Japan animation is as much business as it is "art".
Not stating my personal opinion, but referring bits from interviews; authors are expendable, licenses are race horses to be beaten till undead.
So... what's the point in trying to imitate something so fleeting, while you could produce something original and completely new instead?
Winning is about foreseeing your foe's moves, not trying to keep up with him/her/it.
The moment you are forced to re-act, you are beginning to lose.
EDIT:
-> MayDay! MayDay!
Bah! I am ordering a sex-droid from Zeonic Corps...
I mean... having sex with a... human!? How gross! 😉
BUT...
Speaking of Japan Animation, the equation wouldn't work for several reasons.
Anime is not about animation alone.
It is not only style, but atmospheres, culture.
American or Canadian made anime is "stock"; it imitates a foreign style, without really being part of it.
I am no fan of Japan anime; I do like mecha anime because I like mecha to begin with, so I like Japan mecha too.
But I can say Japan mecha revolve around plots and atmospheres completely stranger to American thought and outlook.
[Just check Gasaraki, for example...]
American anime would need to cease being American, before being able to imitate Japan anime.
And then, it would make no sense to imitate something, since American anime would turn out to be an empty shell.
Also...
Japan anime draws its revenues from merchandise, so, animation alone wouldn't be enough to win the market over.
Let us not forget Japan animation is as much business as it is "art".
Not stating my personal opinion, but referring bits from interviews; authors are expendable, licenses are race horses to be beaten till undead.
So... what's the point in trying to imitate something so fleeting, while you could produce something original and completely new instead?
Winning is about foreseeing your foe's moves, not trying to keep up with him/her/it.
The moment you are forced to re-act, you are beginning to lose.
EDIT:
-> MayDay! MayDay!
Bah! I am ordering a sex-droid from Zeonic Corps...
I mean... having sex with a... human!? How gross! 😉
Last edited:
Celtic_Emperor
3rd Level White Feather
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I of course was being general. Anyone knows that its much more than just about art, but we possess all those qualities being as diverse as well are, especially in the different ethnic groups we have.
Japanese that work over here or would work over here with us legitimize it. If they would rather create japanese animation here or infuse what we create with it, then thats what I'm refering to as the downfall of japanese animation for the japanese people.
It doesn't take a japanese man to create authentic japanese animation, simply someone who has a love for the genre.
While you have a perfectly sound and valid point in us needing to be more than just a facsimile, we already would be more than that. We have much more room and content to be able to make something unique and original and still capture the same audiances that love japanese animation by drawing in similar ways.
I think whats important is to distinguish when something is a copy, a rip-off, and when something is renovated and re-created in such a profound and original way that it is no longer a copy, but an original concept which was inspired by something else.
Everything is inspired by something else, so to say everything is a copy wouldn't make much sense when many things are profoundly different. My reference to us being able to draw just as well as them is a simple remark that we can, not that we will or need to.
EDIT:
The remark of us upseting their market and economy is to be taken at face value. We have the capacity and money to generate japanese animation faster and better than they can. People would sooner buy it from us than to pay more for their anime, especially when it could be the exact same thing. Anyone who would still pay extra for imported anime for the sake of being a purist or having some sort of loyalty to Japan when they themselves are not japanese would be a bit silly I think.
The only concern we would have in creating completely authentic anime is in hiring japanese people to do the voices in japanese and to sing to the music, etc. I'm sure theres plenty of japanese actors/singers who would do it here, and they'd be paid better for it. We wouldn't need to fly them in from Japan. Or, alternatively, we could hire top talent from Japan, and steal them away by offering them more per contract. By doing this we also get the fans of these individual actors to flock over and buy into our anime.
But that would only be about 20% of a total production, since the anime can stand alone without the japanese dialogue.
Japanese that work over here or would work over here with us legitimize it. If they would rather create japanese animation here or infuse what we create with it, then thats what I'm refering to as the downfall of japanese animation for the japanese people.
It doesn't take a japanese man to create authentic japanese animation, simply someone who has a love for the genre.
While you have a perfectly sound and valid point in us needing to be more than just a facsimile, we already would be more than that. We have much more room and content to be able to make something unique and original and still capture the same audiances that love japanese animation by drawing in similar ways.
I think whats important is to distinguish when something is a copy, a rip-off, and when something is renovated and re-created in such a profound and original way that it is no longer a copy, but an original concept which was inspired by something else.
Everything is inspired by something else, so to say everything is a copy wouldn't make much sense when many things are profoundly different. My reference to us being able to draw just as well as them is a simple remark that we can, not that we will or need to.
EDIT:
The remark of us upseting their market and economy is to be taken at face value. We have the capacity and money to generate japanese animation faster and better than they can. People would sooner buy it from us than to pay more for their anime, especially when it could be the exact same thing. Anyone who would still pay extra for imported anime for the sake of being a purist or having some sort of loyalty to Japan when they themselves are not japanese would be a bit silly I think.
The only concern we would have in creating completely authentic anime is in hiring japanese people to do the voices in japanese and to sing to the music, etc. I'm sure theres plenty of japanese actors/singers who would do it here, and they'd be paid better for it. We wouldn't need to fly them in from Japan. Or, alternatively, we could hire top talent from Japan, and steal them away by offering them more per contract. By doing this we also get the fans of these individual actors to flock over and buy into our anime.
But that would only be about 20% of a total production, since the anime can stand alone without the japanese dialogue.
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Celtic_Emperor
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I suppose this is more a "what if" than something that will actually happen. But its very possible, and something we could do right now if we wanted to. Its just not organized to do it because we have no intention of doing it.
We would rather let them do the work and get the money at the same time. It would be good if we offered it too however, as it would give american artists jobs in this industry. It wouldn't really be possible otherwise.
An american would have to move to Japan and work in those sweatshop-like condition for japanese currency just to be able to make money drawing this type of thing. You could always fax your portion of a project over to your japanese co-workers but that would be tiring and cumbersome. You need that person-to-person interaction and teamwork. You'd also have to learn to speak japanese. All of this just so you can draw for an official manga company? Very discouraging.
By making it here we give americans actual jobs and careers as professional manga artists. It wouldn't be a dream any longer but it would strain things and the japanese might try to stop it or stand in the way since they are the ones who would be getting the short end of the stick. By creating something thats already popular we make more off of it, while their income stays the same or spirals down because of our profits in relation to the ground we'd be gaining.
We would rather let them do the work and get the money at the same time. It would be good if we offered it too however, as it would give american artists jobs in this industry. It wouldn't really be possible otherwise.
An american would have to move to Japan and work in those sweatshop-like condition for japanese currency just to be able to make money drawing this type of thing. You could always fax your portion of a project over to your japanese co-workers but that would be tiring and cumbersome. You need that person-to-person interaction and teamwork. You'd also have to learn to speak japanese. All of this just so you can draw for an official manga company? Very discouraging.
By making it here we give americans actual jobs and careers as professional manga artists. It wouldn't be a dream any longer but it would strain things and the japanese might try to stop it or stand in the way since they are the ones who would be getting the short end of the stick. By creating something thats already popular we make more off of it, while their income stays the same or spirals down because of our profits in relation to the ground we'd be gaining.
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CellarDweller
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Ok, I just read this whole thread....and fried my brain.
ow ow ow ow....
*goes off to dvd player, to watch the first season of "Charmed" or old episodes of The Super Friends....."wonder twin powers.....activate!"
ow ow ow ow....
*goes off to dvd player, to watch the first season of "Charmed" or old episodes of The Super Friends....."wonder twin powers.....activate!"
Celtic_Emperor
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LOL, it doesn't have to be so involved as it has been for you cellardweller.
I'm sure theres something that bugs you, right? Don't be shy.
I'm sure theres something that bugs you, right? Don't be shy.
Kalamos
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I still can't see the point in hiring anime-lovers to recreate anime outside Japan.
I mean... even paying them the lowest wage, it wouldn't be economically viable.
Also, it could lead to genre stagnation, since it would either have to stick to a canon, and become stale, or start inventing, and risk upsetting the older fans.
Really, it seems more like a counterfeiting attempt, than an original creation of art.
Besides, it would clearly lack the cultural basis some anime shows do rest upon.
Unless you are only aiming to please the eye, and goad kids into buying stuff, with eye-candy and such.
I mean... even paying them the lowest wage, it wouldn't be economically viable.
Also, it could lead to genre stagnation, since it would either have to stick to a canon, and become stale, or start inventing, and risk upsetting the older fans.
Really, it seems more like a counterfeiting attempt, than an original creation of art.
Besides, it would clearly lack the cultural basis some anime shows do rest upon.
Unless you are only aiming to please the eye, and goad kids into buying stuff, with eye-candy and such.
Celtic_Emperor
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As sad as it is, I think that would be negotiable, upsetting older fans that is. Its just as much about money as it is anything else.
And again, it wouldn't lack cultural bases just because it wasn't created by japanese people. If the feeling is still there then its just as well. People don't care so much what is going on behind the scenes as they were with the presentation of the material itself and how true and faithful it is to the japanese equivelent.
Little by little more and more artists are leaning toward this style and are american. Its only a matter of time before this does happen, in retrospect.
By not allowing this to happen its like telling americans what they can and cannot draw and make a career on. One thing is calling yourself an anime artist, but another is actually being able to live that out and make a living off of it.
Someone shouldn't have to stifle their joy or hopes of being a part of this business simply because they are not japanese and aren't considered worthy of drawing this material even if its clear they are superior artists with more talent and ideas.
Since the japanese cannot be counted on to allow americans to work alongside them in studios, plus because it would be impractical, then the only other choice is to create our own manga studios here and hire americans as the staff. Its the only way for equal opportunity and for artists to live out their dreams in this way.
Theres always compromise in things like this and no matter what anyone does, its going to piss someone off. I'm sure theres a way this can be mutually beneficial for both sides, we just haven't found it yet.
And again, it wouldn't lack cultural bases just because it wasn't created by japanese people. If the feeling is still there then its just as well. People don't care so much what is going on behind the scenes as they were with the presentation of the material itself and how true and faithful it is to the japanese equivelent.
Little by little more and more artists are leaning toward this style and are american. Its only a matter of time before this does happen, in retrospect.
By not allowing this to happen its like telling americans what they can and cannot draw and make a career on. One thing is calling yourself an anime artist, but another is actually being able to live that out and make a living off of it.
Someone shouldn't have to stifle their joy or hopes of being a part of this business simply because they are not japanese and aren't considered worthy of drawing this material even if its clear they are superior artists with more talent and ideas.
Since the japanese cannot be counted on to allow americans to work alongside them in studios, plus because it would be impractical, then the only other choice is to create our own manga studios here and hire americans as the staff. Its the only way for equal opportunity and for artists to live out their dreams in this way.
Theres always compromise in things like this and no matter what anyone does, its going to piss someone off. I'm sure theres a way this can be mutually beneficial for both sides, we just haven't found it yet.
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Celtic_Emperor
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You know what, let me put it this way K-man.
Japanese people working in America and abroad are allowed to work officially for Disney as artists, etc, and every effort is made to bridge these types of gaps including styles.
The door does not swing both ways when it comes to japanese animation. Thats the problem. Americans love this genre and want to work in it, but unless they (the japanese) help make it possible, its slowing us down, and makes it more likely that we'll have to create our own businesses and studios and undermind them whether we like that prospect or not.
Japanese people working in America and abroad are allowed to work officially for Disney as artists, etc, and every effort is made to bridge these types of gaps including styles.
The door does not swing both ways when it comes to japanese animation. Thats the problem. Americans love this genre and want to work in it, but unless they (the japanese) help make it possible, its slowing us down, and makes it more likely that we'll have to create our own businesses and studios and undermind them whether we like that prospect or not.
Kalamos
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I see your point; I have no real stance about it, though.
Personally, I am curious about behind-the-scenes events, but I can understand that most fans are more interested in the final product.
I can also understand that Japanese are reluctant to work side by side with Americans; many reasons dictate so - and they are quite apparent in anime/manga productions around 1970-1990.
What I don't see the point in is trying to "beat" them on their own chosen ground.
Ok, anime is getting popular, but the point is not trying to counterfeit the style, rather, echoing the plots, and the underlying ideas.
Else, it's posing, not creating, IMHO.
Practical example: Fasa used Harmony Gold's Macross mecha to sell their Battletech game with.
Harmony Gold later sued Fasa, and the battroids had to go.
Fasa made new western-looking mechs up, and advanced the story-line a bit, to go on without the contended mecha.
Harmony Gold, Bandai, Banpresto and so on, went on producing mecha anime and games. Let me us some youth lingo: many of those games undeniably rock.
Activision, then Microprose and Microsoft, tried porting the original Battletech boardgame to a PC system.
While fun to play, the western mechs look like dustbins compared to japanese mechas - be they either sleek as in Gundam, or rugged like those in Gasaraki/Front Mission.
PC mecha games are far and few; action is usually slowpaced and mecha-design quite weak.
Just ask Nessonite, and she'll tell you.
While I love my Mechwarrior games collection, the Fasa mechs and rule-system pale in comparision with their action-packed japanese cousins.
And nobody has attempted translating to a western language Gundam Tactics, yet...
Personally, I am curious about behind-the-scenes events, but I can understand that most fans are more interested in the final product.
I can also understand that Japanese are reluctant to work side by side with Americans; many reasons dictate so - and they are quite apparent in anime/manga productions around 1970-1990.
What I don't see the point in is trying to "beat" them on their own chosen ground.
Ok, anime is getting popular, but the point is not trying to counterfeit the style, rather, echoing the plots, and the underlying ideas.
Else, it's posing, not creating, IMHO.
Practical example: Fasa used Harmony Gold's Macross mecha to sell their Battletech game with.
Harmony Gold later sued Fasa, and the battroids had to go.
Fasa made new western-looking mechs up, and advanced the story-line a bit, to go on without the contended mecha.
Harmony Gold, Bandai, Banpresto and so on, went on producing mecha anime and games. Let me us some youth lingo: many of those games undeniably rock.
Activision, then Microprose and Microsoft, tried porting the original Battletech boardgame to a PC system.
While fun to play, the western mechs look like dustbins compared to japanese mechas - be they either sleek as in Gundam, or rugged like those in Gasaraki/Front Mission.
PC mecha games are far and few; action is usually slowpaced and mecha-design quite weak.
Just ask Nessonite, and she'll tell you.
While I love my Mechwarrior games collection, the Fasa mechs and rule-system pale in comparision with their action-packed japanese cousins.
And nobody has attempted translating to a western language Gundam Tactics, yet...
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Celtic_Emperor
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In reference to "behind the scenes" it wouldn't be as if something bad or seedy is going on. It would be the exact same processes they go through, the only difference is the nationality of the people that are doing it. Thats discrimination to not allow it.
As I said in my last post, Disney is a company that allows different people to work on projects. Not so with japanese animation because the japanese people are stubborn, inverted, and greedy. They want our business but they don't want our partnership. Pretty sad.
I think, for example, that if americans or whatever, and japanese were allowed to design mechas together, we'd have some really sweet looking mechas that echoed back to the old school japanese styles while having the refreshed edge of something new, which in no single way is attributed to a single nationality, but a sleuth of them. Certain aspects of the mecha for example might be designed by different people. In the end, in a very real way, you've created a mecha from the combined collective of many differnent prospects and nationalities. And each trait thats unique fills in the others and builds on them.
Again, the door needs to swing both ways. We have extended the japanese a huge respect for their culture in relation to their anime. We allow them to work with us, and we admire what they bring to the table, yet they refuse to allow us to be a part of what they are doing when we are just as good as they are and can do exactly what they do and more. We build branches of Disney and other "western" influences over there and allow them to participate and make or break the business, and they don't do the same.
Why we cannot make our own manga studios here is beyond me. Theres no excuse for it. They're being more greedy then we've ever been in this respect.
As I said in my last post, Disney is a company that allows different people to work on projects. Not so with japanese animation because the japanese people are stubborn, inverted, and greedy. They want our business but they don't want our partnership. Pretty sad.
I think, for example, that if americans or whatever, and japanese were allowed to design mechas together, we'd have some really sweet looking mechas that echoed back to the old school japanese styles while having the refreshed edge of something new, which in no single way is attributed to a single nationality, but a sleuth of them. Certain aspects of the mecha for example might be designed by different people. In the end, in a very real way, you've created a mecha from the combined collective of many differnent prospects and nationalities. And each trait thats unique fills in the others and builds on them.
Again, the door needs to swing both ways. We have extended the japanese a huge respect for their culture in relation to their anime. We allow them to work with us, and we admire what they bring to the table, yet they refuse to allow us to be a part of what they are doing when we are just as good as they are and can do exactly what they do and more. We build branches of Disney and other "western" influences over there and allow them to participate and make or break the business, and they don't do the same.
Why we cannot make our own manga studios here is beyond me. Theres no excuse for it. They're being more greedy then we've ever been in this respect.
Kalamos
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Vladislaus Dracula said:
Yes, I read that, but if they are so mean, as you claim them to be, why do you/we make business with them at all?
Why do american designers stick with western clunky mecha style - to keep on with my prev example - instead of just borrowing bits?
For example, in Front Mission and Armored Core, players could customise mechas down to the rivet - almost.
With Mechwarrior I can decide the payload - to a very limited extent - and that's it.
It is all about design ideas.
Did USA sign a contract where they stated that good mecha games could only turn up on japanese consoles??
So, are they greedy? Maybe they are. But producers can only be as greedy as we allow them to be.
If we stopped buying merchandise, they'd have to reconsider their politics.
Instead, they managed to sell a 20 yo series, MS Gundam Z, as if it were mint condition new stuff...
Claiming they are discriminating western artists will do nil.
Creating something new that will fill the same niche might fare better.
Celtic_Emperor
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I think you continue to fail to see what I'm getting at. I'm not talking about creating something new as if it's a need or want, though that can be done. I'm talking about having a right to be a part of this business the same as they are. We give them that priveledge like its a right when they and their people are involved in our dealings. It would only be right to allow that for us.
If I go pro I'm damn well going to draw whatever the hell I want and make my money on that, not be overlorded by a nation who says I should do my own thing and I have no place drawing what they draw and making what they make just because of where they're from. That exclusive attitude won't work on me and its not working on alot of american artists whose careers are up in the air because of this issue of not being able to find a home where they can create anime too for a living, with their own stories, own characters, etc. and utlimately have the pride and joy of having these shows air on american tv because they're american made.
Animation is for everyone, they have no right to dictate what the rest of the world can and cannot do.
They may have created japanese animation, but they are not it's future, we all are.
"Wow, this anime was made by americans?! It was just as cool as the japanese ones! I want more!"
Thats what we want to hear. We don't want to be seen as children with the japanese as our parents. Thats patronizing and condecending. We want to be treated like equals, especially after all we've done in our own right.
Its silly and stupid for this to even be an issue over choice of drawing style which may have nothing to do with anything other than visual preference.
So in a very real, serious way, according to what this thread is asking of me, this is something that "bugs" me, very much so.
My potential future and portfolio and credentials (among thousands and thousands of others) may depend on americans making the next move of creating, producing, and distributing their own anime, completely free and independant of Japan.
So far we've been living under the shadow that "only the japanese have the right to draw japanese animation for a living". That sort of mentality is very discouraging and unhealthy.
I think they're afraid. They know what we're capable of. They just don't want to lose money, our money. They want to oppress the american artist by suggesting what they draw for a living can be marginalized and should be. Thats wrong.
They've mentally conditioned America through elitism to believe that if its not japanese made its nothing but a rip off and that cartoons are all we're capable of.
What we are doing is not a rip-off of anything. Its a continuation of a legecy we all have a right to hold the torch for, however we want to hold it for however long we want to hold it, and through what medium we want to hold it.
If I go pro I'm damn well going to draw whatever the hell I want and make my money on that, not be overlorded by a nation who says I should do my own thing and I have no place drawing what they draw and making what they make just because of where they're from. That exclusive attitude won't work on me and its not working on alot of american artists whose careers are up in the air because of this issue of not being able to find a home where they can create anime too for a living, with their own stories, own characters, etc. and utlimately have the pride and joy of having these shows air on american tv because they're american made.
Animation is for everyone, they have no right to dictate what the rest of the world can and cannot do.
They may have created japanese animation, but they are not it's future, we all are.
"Wow, this anime was made by americans?! It was just as cool as the japanese ones! I want more!"
Thats what we want to hear. We don't want to be seen as children with the japanese as our parents. Thats patronizing and condecending. We want to be treated like equals, especially after all we've done in our own right.
Its silly and stupid for this to even be an issue over choice of drawing style which may have nothing to do with anything other than visual preference.
So in a very real, serious way, according to what this thread is asking of me, this is something that "bugs" me, very much so.
My potential future and portfolio and credentials (among thousands and thousands of others) may depend on americans making the next move of creating, producing, and distributing their own anime, completely free and independant of Japan.
So far we've been living under the shadow that "only the japanese have the right to draw japanese animation for a living". That sort of mentality is very discouraging and unhealthy.
I think they're afraid. They know what we're capable of. They just don't want to lose money, our money. They want to oppress the american artist by suggesting what they draw for a living can be marginalized and should be. Thats wrong.
They've mentally conditioned America through elitism to believe that if its not japanese made its nothing but a rip off and that cartoons are all we're capable of.
What we are doing is not a rip-off of anything. Its a continuation of a legecy we all have a right to hold the torch for, however we want to hold it for however long we want to hold it, and through what medium we want to hold it.
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nessonite1
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I'm once again inadvertantly involved in something! I was innocently scanning through uber-long logically lacking posts and I see this. May I ask what I would know about mecha games?? :weird:
nessonite1
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And my 2 cents (added to your $4.85)...American cartoons that attempt to mimick anime style have been nothing short of crap. Think Teen Titans and Totally Spies. Seriously...I know they're just kiddie shows but they're even bad at being that.
