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The Confederate Flag

Back to topic?

The Confederate flag has a swirling mass of falsehood surrounding it. As a MS historian by hobby, it's always been at the forefront when topics that impact current era are discussed. The "Southern Cross" is a recognizable symbol to most people. Some view it as a symbol of Southern heritage, while others simply see it as a reminder of hate and racism. Hmmmm...who is right? Both are.

The Southern cross was used as a battle flag after the South's secession. That being the case, there can be a staunch support for the historical side of things. The flag does represent, in theory, one of the most beautiful aspect of our country. That being the will of a people to step away from the whole when they feel that things are not being done in their best interest.(read as states' rights) Whether you believe the war between the states was simply over slavery, or not, you have to respect that there were thousands of people standing up for a cause they believed to be just at the time. You cannot convince me that huge fields ran wet and deep with blood just so farming would be easier. I feel the Confderacy meant more than support of slavery. Too many lives lost to justify it that way. That's another discussion though. I digress. It was a different world then, and maybe we can't appreciate the environment these people were seeing that caused their decisions to be what they were. In any case, the formation of the Confederacy was a worthwhile moment in the history of our country. If you choose to accept that and take it a bit farther, you can say that the Southern Cross flag or the (Navy Jack flag) is a symbol of that time period. A symbol of the will of a people. HOWEVER.....this was only one of three flags used during this period. There are other options if you choose to celebrate your heritage with a symbol.

I'd suggest this flag, the ORIGINAL FLAG OF THE CONFEDERACY, which seems most appropriate if you're choosing to back the positive side of the history of states' rights.

<br><br>
<img src="http://atlas.imagemagician.com/images/joby/cflag1">
<br><br>

The older I get, the more I have to side with the people who view it as a symbol of hate. Loving grups such as the KKK, and your local beer joint redneck racist crowd from the woods, along with countless other extremist groups have adoppted it as a form of hate on a stick. As much as the history of the Civil War era is represented by the Southern Cross Battle Flag, or the Navy Jack flag that is acutally more of what we recognize as the "Confederate Flag," so is the history since then. Since there aren't any people alive that flew the flag as a symbol of their love of country during the war, I'd dare say that the focus on the history of the flag should be on the history of those who flew it most recently. Those people are predominantly the ones who supported the state flag changes during the 50's and 60's as a passive way to boycott equal rights. A cultural undercurrent since then has been that anyone disliking minorities will use the flag to rally likeminded folks without saying the words, "We hate jew, gooks, niggers...___________ you fill in the blank." They can say, "Let's celebrate our history."

Whether you like it or not, the The Southern Cross is no longer simply a flag from a timelong ago where people fought for a cause they believed in. It has since been used as a symbol of racism, hate, violence, and close minds. It's history has been desecrated by extremists groups. You cannot be selective when it comes to history. You can't ignore that the idiots of the world manipulated a flag to serve a purpose less than admirable. Flatly, if you choose to honor the Confederate Battle Flag, which was never an official symbol of the Confederacy or the official flag of any state, you're choosing to honor the full and complete history. You can say Hitler was a great speaker, but you don't forget his message. You can say the flag is a symbol of heritage, but heritage is history.....and it's history has been stained.

Joby
 
Do y'all really think the nation is better off the "yankee way" than if the south had won? I promise you, we would have never put up with all the disgusting crap that is going on today. It's pretty shitty when you have 20% of the population telling the other 80% what to do.

Screw "politically correct" ....it's "love it or leave it" where I'm from. (Also, people in large numbers are getting sick of all this liberalism, notice in Georgia, the first republican governor since the cival war was just elected, mainly because the last asshole governor bowed down to the minority opinion and changed the state flag (To the ugliest one in the world) without the majority input.)

So, people like "shining ice" seem to be losing their appeal with the majority. -Or the "silent majority" is starting to get sick of this crap and stand up. Whatever it is, we seem to be going in the right direction, finally.
 
Wanna hear something funny?

...the main reason that the South surrendered to the North in the Civil War was that they ran out of bullets! It's true! Look it up...so every time i hear about the greatness of the Confederate States i always bring out THIS shining gem. i guess trying to use bullwhips and chewing tobacco against the rifles of the Union Army, especially those units full of ex-slaves that enlisted to fight their former "masters", just didn't work, did it? i wonder what happened when they came to town? oh yeah, didn't they "burn ole dixie down"?

"the South will rise again"? Well, this time remember to bring an extra clip! 🙄
 
Well, if that's the only reason the south lost, then that's pretty impressive, to me! I know a whole lot more yankees than rebels died in the civil war. -I think the south did superb, especially being outnumbered something like 3 to 1, my God! That shows the true heart in a southerner, fight hard for what you believe in, even against overwhelming odds. ....And the civil war was not all about slavery, it was about keeping states rights. I am all for individualism, we don't need some distant government with a "one size fits all" approach telling us what to do.

(Oh, let's not forget, there were a-plenty of blacks in the civil war on the CONFEDERATE side also, voluntaraly.) <img src="http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/76/76143/folders/39446/376361georgiaC.gif" width="68" height="50">



....Don't forget, Confederate memorial day is coming up!
 
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And we are defending the slaughter of brother by brother why? This was one of the darkest hours of American history. "we disagree with the guys "up there" or "down there" so lets go kill em"....



Not a pleasant way to get one's point of view across. I hope we have learned something by it. At the very least, we came out of it in one piece and developed into the world power that we are today.A Small
consolation in lieu of the lives that were lost but there none the less...

*Ven's last 2 cents"
 
O/T discussions

:sowrong:

But, thank you Joby, for actually debating the topic and bringing information into the thread.

I'd like to remind everyone here that there ARE rules to posting. And they apply to all as evenly as possible. Some of you have been here long enough to know these standards by heart, and to be aware that we won't tolerate stepping over certain lines repeatedly and frequently. If anyone needs to review, please refer to the Forum Rules. http://www.ticklingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=76


Debate CAN occur without personal rancor....

Q
 
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congratulations jobelle

once again you have taken the words out of my mouth, and the wind from my sails, lol! also, you have said it better than i could have.
i'd like to echo what was also said, but also to polish it further; more black slaves served in the confederate army than in the union army of aggression! they were volunteers! as were the poor white farmers from all over the south who never owned a slave! the war between the states was not about slavery! that was a side issue about 5th down the list! it was used by northern industrialists to get the dumb, poor farmers of the northern states to fight!
i view the starts and bars as a symbole of states rights, and should never be forgotten.
slavery was wrong, full stop, period. but let us not forget it was brought here by the british, the french, and the spanish. oh yeah, it was also practiced here by the indiginous indians.
linclon concidered the black slaves to be the ruination of our country, and vowed to return them to africa! a quater of a milliom were returned to what is now liberia, before lincoln was killed, and his successor stopped the return.
this is a topic frought with pitfalls, and one that always leaves hard feelings.
steve
 
Tear the damn stars and bars to shreds and to people like CDFGA who think the country is going back to Confederate views why dont u go join ur local militia. Also black confederate soldiers: Hmm let me see be a slave or be a soldier ....what choice to make....Some of the views on this forum are absolutely retarded.
 
ShiningIce said:
Tear the damn stars and bars to shreds and to people like CDFGA who think the country is going back to Confederate views why dont u go join ur local militia. Also black confederate soldiers: Hmm let me see be a slave or be a soldier ....what choice to make....Some of the views on this forum are absolutely retarded.

Well Ice, everybody has a right to their own opinions. This may come as quite a shock to you, but you are not the only person who is allowed to have an opinion.
 
since you said it first

O/T
 
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What is the point of all this??

First, blacks fought voluntarily for the South in the Civil War? what have you been smoking? you'll have to prove that one because i've never heard anything remotely like that and i was born, raised and went to college in the South! But why all the racially tinged posts? Because of the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday? Even if you don't like what he stood for, at least show some respect for people who do. I respect and celebrate the 4th of July even though that date is pretty irrelevant to most blacks who are descendants of the people who were still slaves at the time America declared their independence in 1776. Every race and culture have their days of celebrations and even though i may not be of that particular group, i totally support and respect them. Every culture has brought something to this great country, and while it is still far from perfect, it is the best thing going!

And originally being from the south i have great respect for southern pride and southern hospitality. some of the nicest, most genuine people i've ever met have been from the south. the south is a vibrant, exciting part of the country. but it does have it's dark side to it's history, such as slavery and it's intolerence for accepting people of other races. hey, the North weren't to kind to immigrents back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. and America as a whole didn't treat the Native Americans too well either. My point is, every race and culture contributes to America in some way thru-out it's history. yes, there has been and still is some degree of ugliness, but striving to know and understand other peoples is what makes this country move forward. i have friends of many different colors, races, and cultures and i feel enriched for knowing them all, and i still can love my own heritage as well. That's what is so great about the USA!

OK, back to the tickling! (please?)
 
CDFGA....i really want to know.

oh, thanks to Jobelle, areenactor, Ice, and the others for their RATIONAL points of view.







_____________________________________________________

If you have a question for a specific member, email them or PM them...don't bring it onto the thread. Q
 
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Re: What is the point of all this??

ticklemonster99 said:
First, blacks fought voluntarily for the South in the Civil War? what have you been smoking? you'll have to prove that one because i've never heard anything remotely like that and i was born, raised and went to college in the South! But why all the racially tinged posts? Because of the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday? Even if you don't like what he stood for, at least show some respect for people who doOK, back to the tickling! (please?)

With all due respect, I am not a racist, so I would ask that everybody please stop putting words in my mouth

2cd This world was not formed on just one opinion. The world does not revolve around what any on person thinks or feels.

I find it strange that people expect (and rightfully so) to be treated with respect, but are not willing to show the same consideration, in return.

Respect is a 2-way street. It cannot be bullied, threatened, or intimidated out of people.

It has to be earned.
 
Theres NOTHING about Stars and Bars that warrants MY respect. Oh and Stevie poo if you're jewish you're a minority.
 
My Opinion...

Theres NOTHING about Stars and Bars that warrants MY respect.

Well, just keep in mind Ice, without the Stars & Bars, you might not be able to speak out against the country without dire consquences... I think you must agree that, if nothing else, you have to have respect for this country for the right to dissent, no matter what the cause/group.
As for the Confederate flag, I think if the Nazis have the right to wave their Swastikas around, the Klu Klux Klan can wear their offensive garb, and The Black Panthers can spew racist bile/wave banners, then there is no real argument against the Confederate flag... especially those who want it taken out of museums. It's a part of our country's history, like it or not, and we must record and preserve history as a lesson to the present and future generations.
 
Oh yes there is Stars and Bars is a gov't flag. Therefore it represents the PUBLIC
 
Hold on...

Does the "Stars & Bars" flags term refer to the Confederate Flag or the American Flag? I was under the impression it represented the American Flag.
 
Strong racism was nationwide both before and after the civil war. A quote from Alexis de Tocqueville from his study Democracy in America about America near the end of the Civil War:

"Race prejudice seems stronger in those states that have abolished slavery then in those where it still exists, and nowhere is it more intolerant than in those states where slavery was never known...

In the South the master has no fear of lifting the slave up to his level, for he knows that when he wants to he can always throw him down into the dust. In the North the white man no longer clearly sees the barrier that separates him from the degraded race, and he keeps the Negro at a distance all the more carefully because he fears lest one day they be confounded together."

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, ed. J. P. Meyer (New York: Doubleday, 1969), p. 343.

So before everyone starts flinging crap at each other you must realize that this was a nationwide problem, and not just a Southern one. So as far as the Confederate flag standing for racism, one could say the same thing for the Union flag as racism was very much nationwide. As far as being proud of Southern racism, and seeing the Confederate flag as a symbol for it, well I believe that is wrong. But as far as being proud of the Confederate flag as a symbol of other southern ideals of the time, I see nothing at all wrong with that. Just my small perspective.

-Jamandi-
 
Okay... now that makes much more sense. No, I really don't think any American has much to be proud of or have respect for the Confederate Flag.
But, it is a part of our country's history so it should be shown at the appropriate venues (mueseums, battle reenactments, etc.).
And, of course, an individual can do whatever the hell they want with it - wave it, stamp on it, whatever. But don't forget that if you do something extreme with the Confederate Flag (or ANY national flag) in public, you'll offended someone no matter what, so you're likely to receive negative feedback/consequences. Can't stop people from saying bad things about you - it's the nature of our beast.
 
My 2 cents:
Those that fought for the Confederacy fought for their state, not for slavery. I have great respect for soldiers such as Robert E. Lee, "Stonewall" Jackson, Jeb Stuart, Mosby, and many others. They did not fight to preserve slavery. I once read that only 5% of the southern population owned slaves. Many were too poor to do so. Do not be so quick to judge that because a person supports the Confederate cause, they also support slavery. Enslaving any group of people is a sin. Had the concept of indentured servants been upheld, there would not have been such a problem. It is very unfortunate that this program was tainted in such a way; morality was compromised for the direct benefit of those that wanted to make a quick dollar. It should be noted that the concept of slavery was introduced to those in the New World by Spain. Whilst the English, French, and Dutch lived by farming and trading, the Spanish came to the New World to pillage and loot in search of gold and silver. They enslaved many of the natives that they came across; to mine silver to be shipped back to Spain. Later on, as the northern climate is not very fit for farming, textile mills became the chief source of northern income. Work by hand was slowly being replaced by machinework. Also, from my point of view, the life of the factory worker was not much better than the life of a slave in the south. While food and board were provided to the slave (although they were treated poorly more often than not), food and board had to be provided in the north by the factory worker's very small earnings. There were many deaths and many accidents in factories, and the owners tended to turn their head when such a thing did occur. I think it would be unfair to say that the Union was any "holier" than the Confederacy. Although the South fought splendidly, the Union prevailed because of manpower and superior resources. 3 to 1 is a pretty accurate ratio, although it is more like 3 to .6, as 1/3 of the south were slaves. The Civil War was indeed a very dark part of our history. It is a shame that idealism could not be settled by words, but instead by violence. Perhaps "popular sovereignty" is to blame. As the country expanded westward, the new states were basically up for grabs. The states were unsure of whether or not to allow slavery in their constitutions. Many southerners wanted these states to become slave states as well, and many northerners of course did not. I believe it was the governor of Illinois that decided that popular sovereignty should decide the fate of these states. Basically, the majority of the population of the state would decide. So, many southerners moved to these territories to uphold their ideas while many northerners did the same. Inevitably, violence replaced debate, and this is where the nation's separation began.

All that being said, I believe that in this day and age, one has to be conscious of everyone else's beliefs, and understanding of them, too. They should not mould your beliefs, but you must be understanding of them. The Confederate flag to me represents the struggle for freedom that the South endured, and is an important part of my history. Had I been born 120-130 years ago, I would have fought under the Stars and Bars. Proudly. Do I think Slavery is wrong? Hell yes. I can understand why it was done, it had its reasons, but I do believe that the bad outweighed the good and there could have been another acceptable solution to the economic problems the South faced. However, I would not fly the flag outside my house, because I am also very aware of what this flag represents to others. I cannot force my opinion on them, they are just as entitled to their opinions as I am to mine. There is no easy answer as to whether the Confederate flag should be flown today or not. I do, however, feel that I should not have to change my view of the Confederate flag because these days there are ignorant fools that use it as a symbol of hatred and supremacy. These days, however, we must be conscious of everyone's views of the flag, and maybe it would be a good idea to retire it to museums. Idealistically, though, one should still be able to fly it high and fly it proud, because although it has since been marred, it is still a symbol of our history, and one that should not be swept under the rug in embarrasment.
 
Quoting Red Indian if I may, "Learn you history, people."

The Confederate Battle Flag was not a symbol of Southern history in and of itself. It was one of many. The reason it gained poularity?? Anyone know?? C'mon....anyone?

Because it was easier to tell Confederate troops from Northern troops on the battle field. That's why it was the flag of choice. When you wave it, you're waving a symbol of death, folks. Plain and simple. *shrug*

Ice, you're going to learn in life that just because you don't agree with with others in the final hours of a situation that it doesn't mean you can't respect and find value in the process that leads to the end. You have made quite the stirring about slaves who fought inthe was saying that it was a choice between that and being a slave. Have you given any thought to the other people who fought under the same flags?

Poor white farmers? They were the majority of the soldiers. They didn't own slaves. They were of no more social or economic value than slaves themselves. They fought because the powers that be started a war that caused Union soldiers to come walking into their back yards with guns in hand. Alot of soldiers picked up arms to protect family and property. Do you have to hate them?

The average age of sodiers who died during the Civil War was only 21 years old. That's the AVERAGE! That means that about HALF of the thousands who died were teenage boys... Teenage boys who knew little more than to protect what they knew. Not really old enough to understand the economic and political influences of the time. The majority of those who died in the Civil War never left home even once until the day they entered the war. And then they left forever. Wave the flag high folks.🙁 There was no mass communication or fair news reporting. These people died for the most part uneducated about the cause. Fesar is a great motivator....an even greater one than the planatation system's survival.

You can point to the Southern Cross and say, "The people who use now are horrible." BUT, if that's ALL you're pointing to and it's your only reason for hating it for its existence, then shame on you.

You can't pick and choose history. If you're going to flame hate, you should know the topic as well as you know yourself yourself.

Joby
 
You can point to the Southern Cross and say, "The people who use now are horrible." BUT, if that's ALL you're pointing to and it's your only reason for hating it for its existence, then shame on you.


THATS ALL THE REASON I NEED TO HATE IT and if you cant understand my reasons, THE PAIM THE AGONY THE HATE THE SCREAMING THE LYNCHING THE BURNING CROSSES and why that damn flag needs to be destroyed then SHAME ON YOU.
 
Wow

Who whoa whoa...ice, I am not in your position, but I have to ask you something. I don't understand how that flag could make you so angry. I mean, what did it ever do to YOU or YOUR family? Don't take this the wrong way....I am just curious as to how a mere symbol could make you so angry, as it really did nothing to you. Your ancestors, yes, but not you. As I said, I am not in your position, so I have no idea how it feels. Shed light on me...😕 .....To compare it to another similar situation, a couple of my Jewish friends don't get steamed when they see a swastika, and Jews have been the most unfortunate people in the world when it comes to slavery and the like....I think it's just a matter of not letting ignorant people get the best of you, and moving on, i.e. looking to the future.
 
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