The war and our Enemy, and why we need to win.

[johnttickle]

Before I start the actual thread I need to get some things on the table. This will be a long thread due to the nature of the subject.

1) I want and encourage replies.

2) The enemy I will be talking about will be Al Qaeda, The Taliban, and any other Islamic extremists. This will not include Muslims or Arabs in general. I know several Muslims and Arabs and the ones I know are great people. It isn’t just the religion; it is the extremists in the religion. I am Christian and we even have extremists, for instance Timothy McVey and the Oklahoma City bombing. So when I talk about the enemy, it isn’t every one that is Muslims.

3) I didn’t want to write this off the top of my head. I went and tried to get people that have seen some of the events, which I will be talking about, first hand. I mean I took notes so I could quote these sources correct. I don’t want to use their names or unit identifications, due to the fact that they are still in service to our country. So here are the main people I talked to:

A) Hawaiian National Guard solder #1: I will quote him as, “NG1”. NG1 got back from Iraq just about eight months ago. He is in the infantry and had direct contact with our enemy and Iraq civilians. This is an employee of mine, and a very good person.

B) Hawaiian National Guard solder #2: I will quote him as, “NG2”. NG2 got back from Iraq about just over a year ago. He is a combat engineer, and had a lot of contact with Iraq civilians.
NG2 is also an employee of mine, and I would take what he has to say as a good resource.

C) Regular Army Airborne solder: I will quote him as, “AA1”. AA1 was in Afghanistan and got back two years ago. He was also awarded the Silver Star for saving his unit in a hand to hand confutation with the Taliban. I called him on the phone since he is still stationed on the East Coast. I have known him since we were kids growing up, so I believe what he has to say.

The Tread: The war and our Enemy.

We are at war, no ifs about that, we are at war. Our enemy wants us dead, just for being an American, Canadian or anyone else that lives a Western type life style. Not only the people that support the war but even the people that are against the war, they still see you as the enemy just because you are American or an ally. If we don’t win this war, you, I and possibly one of your family members may die; no matter how safe you think you are now. So here is how I got there.

We were attacked on September 11, 2001, here on American soil. And there may be a good chance that that kind of attack could happen again. They could target your work, our schools, where you shop, sporting events, commuting to work, or anywhere there is a large group of people together at once. They have already been doing this in England and other places in Europe, who share our life style. They are not going to ask you how you feel about them or the war; they are attacking with great vengeance and with no remorse. This is a holy war to them, so they feel justified in what they are doing. NG1 stated to me, “This enemy, from talking to Iraq civilians, wants all Americans dead, no matter who or what you believe about the war or them.” NG1 then went on to say, “They hate us (Americans) like Hitler hated the Jews.” “If they could they would build gas chambers and walk every American into them, just like Hitler did with the Jews.” “They want full extermination of all Americans and our Allies.” I believe him when he says this, due to his contact with the civilians in Iraq. Talking to NG2, he stated, “We are not only fighting Iraq dissidents now, but Al Qaeda is has gotten involved in the war in Iraq, and that is a very bad thing.” NG2 went on to say, “What I hear too, is that Iran is helping them (Al Qaeda) with money and arms.” This isn’t just a war taking place in Iraq; this is a war taking place in the whole region.

 

[johnttickle]

AA1 stated, “In Afghanistan, we were at war with the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and they still seem to be getting plenty of support from the countries that surround Afghanistan.” “Also, I hear that the Taliban is getting money from growing poppies and then selling the heroin, on the open market.” So it looks like with all our effort to try and stop our enemies funding, they are still getting plenty of funds to support their effort.

Now the scariest thing AA1 told me was, “It looks like we have pushed the Taliban and Al Qaeda in to the boarders of Pakistan.” AA1 then stated, “This is a problem due to the fact that Pakistan already has nukes developed, not in the process of development but already made and ready to fire.” This is also scary due to the fact that an attempt was made on Pakistan’s Prime Ministers life. The Prime Minister says he supports the US’s interests, but if he is killed there is a chance that the wrong people may be in power.
AA1 also told me, “If the wrong people get their hands on nukes, they just need a floating platform to launch missiles from.” “If they get a floating platform, they could come close enough to the US and hit a major coastal city.” “Now if it was me with this kind of launch platform, I would probably come up from the Cuban waters and hit Miami or any city in Southern Florida.” When AA1 told me this, my jaw dropped to the floor; that all made sense to me. Now that is scary! I asked him what kind of boat they could launch from. His answer was, “They could disguise it as all kinds of commercial vessels, such as large fishing boats, cargo ships, or just about any large vessels that are common to the waters around there.” That is just too scary for me; he also said I may also be in danger of this kind of attack, living here in Hawaii with all the water around the island.

Another thing I wanted to know about was why the Iraq civilians were not helping more to win the war. NG2 had this to say, “The Iraq civilians seem to think we may be pulling out soon, and if they side with us, they may be dead when the US pulls out.” NG2 also stated, “They are all watching the news from the US and how divided the country is over the war.” “They think that the enemy knows that there is now enough pressure to pull out and that all they have to do is wait it out and they win.” “The country and all the oil will be theirs, and they will have all the money from the oil to help attack Israel and the US.”

So in closing, we have to win this war. If we pull out too soon, we could be helping the enemy that wants every American dead. They will have more funding and plenty of resources to carry out their plans. Also if the enemy gets their hands on the nukes in Pakistan, it could get really really bad. I am sorry for the long thread, but this isn’t a subject that could be talked about in a paragraph or two. This is too important, especially when all our safety is in question. Now I would like to know what you think.

Aloha, John

 

[Sitr]

I only have to comment on a few things. The whole Iraqi citizens not helping us is rather logical if you think about it. They were fine under Saddam. We came in, gave them a "revolution" and gave them freedom. They didn't want freedom. If they wanted freedom they would have started this war on their own like we did with the British.
And about the Al Qaeda I say we just take all the oil from that region of the world then just nuke it to hell before Al Qaeda nukes us. Yeah it's a mass murderer action but that entire region of the world is just full of idiots. They pointlessly kill each other for religious differences. It's exactly like the Crusades over there. Pointless bloodshed for some stupid little religious differences.

 

[august spies]

AA1 stated, “In Afghanistan, we were at war with the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and they still seem to be getting plenty of support from the countries that surround Afghanistan.” “Also, I hear that the Taliban is getting money from growing poppies and then selling the heroin, on the open market.” So it looks like with all our effort to try and stop our enemies funding, they are still getting plenty of funds to support their effort.

Now the scariest thing AA1 told me was, “It looks like we have pushed the Taliban and Al Qaeda in to the boarders of Pakistan.” AA1 then stated, “This is a problem due to the fact that Pakistan already has nukes developed, not in the process of development but already made and ready to fire.” This is also scary due to the fact that an attempt was made on Pakistan’s Prime Ministers life. The Prime Minister says he supports the US’s interests, but if he is killed there is a chance that the wrong people may be in power.
AA1 also told me, “If the wrong people get their hands on nukes, they just need a floating platform to launch missiles from.” “If they get a floating platform, they could come close enough to the US and hit a major coastal city.” “Now if it was me with this kind of launch platform, I would probably come up from the Cuban waters and hit Miami or any city in Southern Florida.” When AA1 told me this, my jaw dropped to the floor; that all made sense to me. Now that is scary! I asked him what kind of boat they could launch from. His answer was, “They could disguise it as all kinds of commercial vessels, such as large fishing boats, cargo ships, or just about any large vessels that are common to the waters around there.” That is just too scary for me; he also said I may also be in danger of this kind of attack, living here in Hawaii with all the water around the island.

Another thing I wanted to know about was why the Iraq civilians were not helping more to win the war. NG2 had this to say, “The Iraq civilians seem to think we may be pulling out soon, and if they side with us, they may be dead when the US pulls out.” NG2 also stated, “They are all watching the news from the US and how divided the country is over the war.” “They think that the enemy knows that there is now enough pressure to pull out and that all they have to do is wait it out and they win.” “The country and all the oil will be theirs, and they will have all the money from the oil to help attack Israel and the US.”

So in closing, we have to win this war. If we pull out too soon, we could be helping the enemy that wants every American dead. They will have more funding and plenty of resources to carry out their plans. Also if the enemy gets their hands on the nukes in Pakistan, it could get really really bad. I am sorry for the long thread, but this isn’t a subject that could be talked about in a paragraph or two. This is too important, especially when all our safety is in question. Now I would like to know what you think.

Aloha, John

If you are seriously concerned about reducing the influence of islamic extremism, you should have been against the iraq war from the start and would be campaigning for its immediate end now. furthermore, you would be encouraging more democratic foreign policies instead of US elite dominated policies.

 

[johnttickle]

Sitr, I have to crack up, because my room mate just said The exact same thing you just posted. We just had a debate on the subject, and his answer matched yours almost to the word.
You pose a very interesting theory. I don’t know if I agree with you, but my roommate does.
Thanks for your reply.

Good luck to everyone.
Aloha, John.

 

[johnttickle]

Punk, I didn't want us there in the first place. I don't want the US to impose our will on anyone. The problem is that it has already happened. Now we need to deal with what is happening now. Hindsight is 20/20, I wish we could go back and not invade, but I have to live in the present.

Thank you for your post.

Aloha, John.

 

[Betchass1]

Before I start the actual thread I need to get some things on the table. This will be a long thread due to the nature of the subject.

1) I want and encourage replies.

2) The enemy I will be talking about will be Al Qaeda, The Taliban, and any other Islamic extremists. This will not include Muslims or Arabs in general. I know several Muslims and Arabs and the ones I know are great people. It isn’t just the religion; it is the extremists in the religion. I am Christian and we even have extremists, for instance Timothy McVey and the Oklahoma City bombing. So when I talk about the enemy, it isn’t every one that is Muslims.

3) I didn’t want to write this off the top of my head. I went and tried to get people that have seen some of the events, which I will be talking about, first hand. I mean I took notes so I could quote these sources correct. I don’t want to use their names or unit identifications, due to the fact that they are still in service to our country. So here are the main people I talked to:

A) Hawaiian National Guard solder #1: I will quote him as, “NG1”. NG1 got back from Iraq just about eight months ago. He is in the infantry and had direct contact with our enemy and Iraq civilians. This is an employee of mine, and a very good person.

B) Hawaiian National Guard solder #2: I will quote him as, “NG2”. NG2 got back from Iraq about just over a year ago. He is a combat engineer, and had a lot of contact with Iraq civilians.
NG2 is also an employee of mine, and I would take what he has to say as a good resource.

C) Regular Army Airborne solder: I will quote him as, “AA1”. AA1 was in Afghanistan and got back two years ago. He was also awarded the Silver Star for saving his unit in a hand to hand confutation with the Taliban. I called him on the phone since he is still stationed on the East Coast. I have known him since we were kids growing up, so I believe what he has to say.

The Tread: The war and our Enemy.

We are at war, no ifs about that, we are at war. Our enemy wants us dead, just for being an American, Canadian or anyone else that lives a Western type life style. Not only the people that support the war but even the people that are against the war, they still see you as the enemy just because you are American or an ally. If we don’t win this war, you, I and possibly one of your family members may die; no matter how safe you think you are now. So here is how I got there.

We were attacked on September 11, 2001, here on American soil. And there may be a good chance that that kind of attack could happen again. They could target your work, our schools, where you shop, sporting events, commuting to work, or anywhere there is a large group of people together at once. They have already been doing this in England and other places in Europe, who share our life style. They are not going to ask you how you feel about them or the war; they are attacking with great vengeance and with no remorse. This is a holy war to them, so they feel justified in what they are doing. NG1 stated to me, “This enemy, from talking to Iraq civilians, wants all Americans dead, no matter who or what you believe about the war or them.” NG1 then went on to say, “They hate us (Americans) like Hitler hated the Jews.” “If they could they would build gas chambers and walk every American into them, just like Hitler did with the Jews.” “They want full extermination of all Americans and our Allies.” I believe him when he says this, due to his contact with the civilians in Iraq. Talking to NG2, he stated, “We are not only fighting Iraq dissidents now, but Al Qaeda is has gotten involved in the war in Iraq, and that is a very bad thing.” NG2 went on to say, “What I hear too, is that Iran is helping them (Al Qaeda) with money and arms.” This isn’t just a war taking place in Iraq; this is a war taking place in the whole region.

You are not a different species than these people. Anything of which they are capable, we are capable.
Some people live in systems that allow them to tell themselves they're not contributing to brutality, and maybe it's these people who are the most incensed when they see others who don't live in such systems. They get indignant and tell themselves "we are not like that".
We are still in the jungle; life is still a question of survival of the fittest. If we win, then we won and we vanquished the evil. It will come back when we are occupying someone else's country or using someone else's resources. If we lose, then we allowed the terrorists and the blah blah blah to win; but in reality whoever is stronger will win and whoever loses will become the bad guy in the history books.

If you still think the attacks on America were completely unprovoked, then you're beyond hope. If you really want to know, rather than to decide based on what you've always seen on TV, or what you've been told by some really honest, trustworthy, hardworking MEMBERS OF THE MOST POWERFUL AGGRESSIVE FORCE IN HUMAN HISTORY WHO WERE OCCUPYING SOMEONE ELSE'S COUNTRY, then how can you make up your mind so completely that we have all just been minding our own business and making the world better for centuries, without actually learning some of the history?

The USA is the only country that has ever deployed nuclear weapons against another country. Ever, since the beginning of time. It is the richest country in the world and one of the biggest polluters. It is not the underdog.

And please don't draw any conclusions about my <i>feelings</i> on the matter. I see it all as nasty, cold harsh reality, that humans will always be warring. I do not see this enemy as poor, helpless people and our side as the mean nasty monsters. But I also don't think they do what they do because of religion. Not one bit. If anything, I feel disdain for those who are incapable of admitting their support of violence; not those who support it.

 

[august spies]

Punk, I didn't want us there in the first place. I don't want the US to impose our will on anyone. The problem is that it has already happened. Now we need to deal with what is happening now. Hindsight is 20/20, I wish we could go back and not invade, but I have to live in the present.

Thank you for your post.

Aloha, John.

Well there are some people, many people actually, a majority of the world, who didnt want us there to begin with and who were smart enough to realize the situation it would create. now maybe try listening to them and end the occupation, and why you are at it end the occupation of palestine as well. that would be big step forward in ending this islamic extremism you claim to hate so much.

But if you find committing genocide funny, i dont know if any of this sane logic will get through.

 

[johnttickle]

Betchass, nice reply!

I will talk a little about my belief on war and the mess we are in now, and it is a mess.

I don’t like war; I think it is an obsolete way of solving problems. I didn’t want us to invade Iraq in the early 90’s or even going back to Lebanon in the early 80’s. Heck I will put it out there that I don’t think we should be worrying about any other country but our own. We have enough problems here in the US to deal with then to try and tell anyone else how they should run or live their lives. I love the different cultures that have developed throughout time all over the world; and I hate the fact that we seem to be trying to make them all change to ours. Plus our culture is not perfect or without evil, so we sure should not be forcing people to live our culture.

The one common thing we do all share, is that people are people. Meaning that there are good people and bad people in every culture. And it is the bad people that start and cause war, hate and violence of any sort. It is my belief that the people that run countries like power, otherwise they wouldn’t be after that job. I also believe that with that power, this people can gather enough support from other power crazed people and together can excite their people into hate and war. They do this through speeches, the media, and any other form of propaganda. You are right in thinking, that there is a good chance that we will never see true peace and will always be at war. This is probably due to the fact that there will always be a group of power hungry people wanting more and more.

Now back to this war. Due to the fact that our people of power went over and invaded Iraq, we pissed off a lot of bad people, and they became our present day enemy. This enemy we have is like no other we have really fought before. They are fighting to keep their culture alive, and afraid in my opinion of losing it. They will do anything now to keep us from taking that away from them, including dying to do so. Since it is a Holy War to them, they have come to the conclusion that dying while taking out their enemy will ensure them a good place in their afterlife. I wrote this thread just to try and enlighten people to the mess the US has gotten itself in now and the enemy that we face. I would love to see us use some kind of peaceful way out of this. But from talking to a lot of people and reading up on this, I thought I needed to get the point out that this enemy is like none other we have ever faced. If we just leave now because we don’t want to fight any more, then we are giving them more resources to continue this war, possibly even bring it to us again here in the US. I don’t want to see you or your family hurt in any way. I wish we could just say to the enemy, “Hey if we promise to leave and not tell you how to live your life, will you leave us alone.” But I don’t think that will happen and this enemy will just keep coming till they have taken us all out, and ensured that their culture will survive.

But then again, I don’t’ think our people of power will do that. And a lot of this is due to the fact of the oil in the region. And that’s something else that is a problem in all of this, is the darn oil. We need to get off of a petroleum based lifestyle. We need to find some other means of power, and then maybe our interest in the Middle East would dwindle. And we could leave them alone. But I am sure that our people of power would find some other way to screw with people somewhere, so they could have more power.

Aloha, John

 

[johnttickle]

Sorry Punk that I couldn’t explain this better last night. I was on my way out when I saw your post.
I hope what I just posted will explain my position better. Also I don’t find genocide, war, or any kind of violence funny at all.

If you are talking about me laughing on my reply to Stir, I was laughing at the fact that my roommate had just said that very same thing. I wasn't laughing about using nukes. I hate nukes!
Me and my roommate don't see eye to eye on this. His postion is America first, and every one else second, which I do not agree with at all!

That is how our people of power got us into this mess.

Thanks for your post.
Aloha, John

 

[morgandee]

Now it's time for some Bandit Keith fan service...in America!

My fellow Americans before me in America, today is a day symbolic to all of us Americans...in America! The day which those silly punks thought they could beat us at a children's card game realized they only activated our trap card...in America!

Myself being an American, am ready to show them punks who the greatest children's card game player is over there...in America!

Now it's time for another Shakespeare quote!

To be, or not to be! That is the question! In America!

 

[Betchass1]

Betchass, nice reply!

I will talk a little about my belief on war and the mess we are in now, and it is a mess.

I don’t like war; I think it is an obsolete way of solving problems. I didn’t want us to invade Iraq in the early 90’s or even going back to Lebanon in the early 80’s. Heck I will put it out there that I don’t think we should be worrying about any other country but our own. We have enough problems here in the US to deal with then to try and tell anyone else how they should run or live their lives. I love the different cultures that have developed throughout time all over the world; and I hate the fact that we seem to be trying to make them all change to ours. Plus our culture is not perfect or without evil, so we sure should not be forcing people to live our culture.

The one common thing we do all share, is that people are people. Meaning that there are good people and bad people in every culture. And it is the bad people that start and cause war, hate and violence of any sort. It is my belief that the people that run countries like power, otherwise they wouldn’t be after that job. I also believe that with that power, this people can gather enough support from other power crazed people and together can excite their people into hate and war. They do this through speeches, the media, and any other form of propaganda. You are right in thinking, that there is a good chance that we will never see true peace and will always be at war. This is probably due to the fact that there will always be a group of power hungry people wanting more and more.

Now back to this war. Due to the fact that our people of power went over and invaded Iraq, we pissed off a lot of bad people, and they became our present day enemy. This enemy we have is like no other we have really fought before. They are fighting to keep their culture alive, and afraid in my opinion of losing it. They will do anything now to keep us from taking that away from them, including dying to do so. Since it is a Holy War to them, they have come to the conclusion that dying while taking out their enemy will ensure them a good place in their afterlife. I wrote this thread just to try and enlighten people to the mess the US has gotten itself in now and the enemy that we face. I would love to see us use some kind of peaceful way out of this. But from talking to a lot of people and reading up on this, I thought I needed to get the point out that this enemy is like none other we have ever faced. If we just leave now because we don’t want to fight any more, then we are giving them more resources to continue this war, possibly even bring it to us again here in the US. I don’t want to see you or your family hurt in any way. I wish we could just say to the enemy, “Hey if we promise to leave and not tell you how to live your life, will you leave us alone.” But I don’t think that will happen and this enemy will just keep coming till they have taken us all out, and ensured that their culture will survive.

But then again, I don’t’ think our people of power will do that. And a lot of this is due to the fact of the oil in the region. And that’s something else that is a problem in all of this, is the darn oil. We need to get off of a petroleum based lifestyle. We need to find some other means of power, and then maybe our interest in the Middle East would dwindle. And we could leave them alone. But I am sure that our people of power would find some other way to screw with people somewhere, so they could have more power.

Aloha, John

Well I definitely agree with some of what you say, but I don't see quite eye to eye on a few things. Yes, this enemy is like none other we have faced; but the Kamikazes were too. Hitler was too. The British definitely were, and the American natives, by all means. The fact that people multiply means that we will always be at odds with each other, and a corollary to this is that our methods of fighting each other will always be forced to evolve. If the only way one side can win is to sacrifice large numbers of young people and hide in caves, they will do it and maybe win. Those individual young people who give their lives may seem insane, but if it allows their culture (your word, very appropriate) to prevail, then that method will be emphasized in the future. Bees and ants do it and their hives are extremely successful. Of course we're not insects, but the reason it works for them is because it works; no reason it shouldn't work for us. In fact, seeing individuals of one's own land die makes many people even more determined to risk their own lives.

I don't think there are good and bad people; I also don't think it's only people with power that cause wars; and I don't think things would be just fine if all the power-hungry people were eliminated. I think the fact that they're power-hungry is itself an evolved trait, a trait that has caused past generations to thrive and so has become desired in some areas of society. I also think that we all support this in many many ways; mostly through working and buying. We buy electronics assembled by anonymous hands and have no way of knowing how well they are fed or even whether they are beaten if they slow down. It is inevitable: if everyone made at least minimum wage then we couldn't have nearly the amount of cool stuff we can have now. I have a feeling that the "Iraqi people" (a single name that refers to millions of individuals with very different attitudes) would largely be happy to sell their land's oil to westerners, if they received its true value and (especially) were given the right to choose who they sold it to. So to me there is a big similarity between the sweatshop assembling electronics and the country with oil deposits receiving less money and power than the people who buy it from them and then control its distribution.
But I still don't think that makes the desire for power the evil factor. It's all through nature, and for a very good reason. When a couple of rams slam their heads together for a while, one eventually gives up and leaves. If there were half a dozen ewes watching the contest, the winner mates with half a dozen ewes and the loser with zero, and the next generation is stronger. If a million barrels of oil are the prize, one side is going to take a million barrels of oil, not 60%, and it will thrive and its methods will be studied by future generations.

 

[TKLVR181]

They don't want us there. I totally support our troops that ARE there. I know that they say we'll have another 'Nam on our hands if we 'pull out'. But that's what they want us to do! Come on, bring our boys home, and if they want us back, they'll ask us. You can't answer questions for people before you ask it--especially when they've made their desires so fecking clear.

~K

 

[johnttickle]

Thanks Betchass that is the kind of reply that I was hoping to hear. You make some good points and back them up with some good logic.

I don’t think I have the answer to anything, but by bringing up good arguments to discuss, we may as a whole come up with some good theories. I have also enjoyed some of the other posts too.

If only the world leaders would sit down and just talk and debate well thought out theories, all the world cultures might then learn to get along. Of course they all need to be civil and calm, and really need to be open to new ideas and theories; and sometimes they even need to agree to disagree. But when they disagree, I would hope that they could come up with some kind of civil decision, without going to war. I am all for just letting the other side live out their lives, as they see fit, as long as they don’t so aggression toward us and tell us how to live. But this doesn’t seem to happen all the time, which is sad, leaders come to the table with agendas that don’t allow for open debate or compromise, and that is when uncivil action takes place. Of course this is just my opinion, please I am open to listening to more debate on this issue, and I promise to be civil, and open minded.

Aloha, John

 

[Journia]

Who says we have to win? There could just be reimbursement.

 

[yurihausen1]

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

 

[Journia]

Someone, tell me there is a way to download THAT clip.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

Someone, tell me there is a way to download THAT clip.

http://www.everythingburns.com/wordpress/?p=65

 

[tk0]

I don't think the focus should be so much on "winning" but that's my view........I think for now I'm just gonna say the next president has a lot of garbage to clean up after.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

I hate to say it, but I am a realist here. When it comes to geopolitics you need to keep a handle on ideals. Not everyone out there is a nice person. I don't hate Islam despite what you may want to think after I write this. I know that it is cliche, but I have worked with some very nice Islamic people. Their religion has simply been hijacked.

I think that it is nieve to say that the Iraqis don't want us there. If they support us publicly they'll get a bullet in the head. That is the kind of crap that they have to deal with. If we leave them now it would plunge the middle east into a massive civil war. The Iranians will move in. Kurdistan declares independence. The Turks will move in. Somebody will take a swipe at Israel. Israel will hit back. Then it goes downhill from there. People need to wake up.

The troops need to stay until the Iraqi government can support itself, end of story. How long was the US army in Europe after WW2. Last I checked we still have bases in Germany. Why were we there? Our good friends in Soviet Union. We were there to stabilize the region.

People forget the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Saddam had repeatedly snubbed the UN. They had repeatedly interfered with the inspectors. They did not fully disclose their weapons systems. EVERYBODY thought Saddam had something. Saddam was banking on the US chickening out. We'll obviously he gambled wrong. In the wake of recent history the US could not take the chance that Saddam would make a deal with Al Quaida. Saddam was a nut.

Do I like troops dying, no. Do I like war, no. Would I like this to be over tomorrow, yes. I think that a lot of mistakes were made. Debaathification was a mistake. The Sunnis were disenfranchised and did not vote in the first election. Its a very dynamic power struggle in that country. The goal seems to be some form of Yugoslavian federation. To be honest, partition should be the goal, but nobody would go for it. The Iraqis need to get a semblance of nationalism going again, but with two factions which put religion before country its tough. Yet again, pulling out without an agreement on the board simply isn't an option.

Yet to be completely honest here in the grand scheme of military history the losses are not severe. Go look at battles fought in WW1 and WW2. Plus there is no score card, that ended in Vietnam.

I do think that it is funny that the same people who want us out of Iraq want us in Darfour. *sigh*

As for the extremists in Islam, they need to be stopped. They do not like American / Western power. They want us completely out of the Middle-East. They want to re-establish the Caliphate. To do that they push us out, then they push the Israelis out, then they comprimise the various governments, then they turn on the Shia and Sufis (forcibly convert). Its not crazy talk. And I am not talking about average run of the mill muslims. I am talking about the real nut job terrorists. They are not doing this because they "Hate America". They have a plan.

If you think that you can't negotiate with them now. Wait until they have nukes. The liberal mindset on this fact totally baffles me. Do they hate America so much that they attack nationalism and the right by defending people who would totally destroy their lifestyle. Do you think that the Taliban would allow a tickling forum to exist?? Do you think that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would allow gay marriage or liberal culture?? Iran has dress code police for women. Women who wear un-Islamic dress are "talked to" by officials. Do you libs honestly want this. And don't say that it can't happen here. At least in the West there is political discourse. It goes to the people in one form or another. Look at the Iranian Theocracy do you want that for your government? Do you want a supreme religious council wielding a veto pen?

You guys in Europe are already starting to feel the political pressure. You have a lot more Islamic immigrants than the US. Do you guys have another Charles Martel in you to push the Moors back? Is there another defense of Vienna in you? I'm not just talking philosophically here. It has happened in the past. Do these immigrants want to assimilate? Do they respect your culture or do they see themselves as outsiders? Do they want your laws or Sharia? That is on your plate right now.

The simple fact is that the US is not going to leave the Middle East. It's not in our political interest to do so. So let's stop killing each other, respect each other and do business.

 

[johnttickle]

Nice post Featherdaemon.

Good sense of what is going on in the present, and the future of Iraq, extremists, and the Middle East. Well done.
Thank you for that post.

Aloha, John.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

Nice post Featherdaemon.

Good sense of what is going on in the present, and the future of Iraq, extremists, and the Middle East. Well done.
Thank you for that post.

Aloha, John.

Anytime John, just doing my part.

 

[Yersinia]

There are some valid concerns in there, and by pulling out of Iraq we can use our army to actually address them. The consequences of Iraq are inevitable; the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will have a prolonged, genocidal, civil war and emerge as three nations. We will slow that process and lower its intensity as long as we are in Iraq, and do so at the expense of effectively counteracting any other threat facing us (the ones from al-Queda for instance).

In the 1970's everyone was concerned about winning that quagmire as well. We needed to keep Vietnam from uniting under communism, because the whole region would follow, and pretty soon we would have a red Hawaii. The Vietnamese didn't follow us home and neither will the Iraqis. The Iraqis attack us for the same reason the VC attacked us: they want us out. The people who will follow us here would do so regardless of whether or not we are in Iraq. Furthermore, Al-Queda is comprised of Sunnis, and Shiites will and do hold the lions share of the power in that region now. Al-Queda will not be taking over Iraq when we leave, and neither will they benefit from a muslim on muslim civil war.

I think if you are serious about our security you should examine your ideas concerning the nature of the Iraq war, and its (lack of) relevance towards credible threats like the Al-Queda presence in Pakistan and the public anger toward President Musharraf. We need to address threats directly and logically rather than assuming that if we keep large numbers of troops somewhere "over there" we will eventually kill everyone who hates us.

 

[Journia]

There are some valid concerns in there, and by pulling out of Iraq we can use our army to actually address them. The consequences of Iraq are inevitable; the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will have a prolonged, genocidal, civil war and emerge as three nations. We will slow that process and lower its intensity as long as we are in Iraq, and do so at the expense of effectively counteracting any other threat facing us (the ones from al-Queda for instance).

In the 1970's everyone was concerned about winning that quagmire as well. We needed to keep Vietnam from uniting under communism, because the whole region would follow, and pretty soon we would have a red Hawaii. The Vietnamese didn't follow us home and neither will the Iraqis. The Iraqis attack us for the same reason the VC attacked us: they want us out. The people who will follow us here would do so regardless of whether or not we are in Iraq. Furthermore, Al-Queda is comprised of Sunnis, and Shiites will and do hold the lions share of the power in that region now. Al-Queda will not be taking over Iraq when we leave, and neither will they benefit from a muslim on muslim civil war.

I think if you are serious about our security you should examine your ideas concerning the nature of the Iraq war, and its (lack of) relevance towards credible threats like the Al-Queda presence in Pakistan and the public anger toward President Musharraf. We need to address threats directly and logically rather than assuming that if we keep large numbers of troops somewhere "over there" we will eventually kill everyone who hates us.

Because large numbers of troops tend to dwindle in 125* in the shade.

 

[august spies]

I hate to say it, but I am a realist here. When it comes to geopolitics you need to keep a handle on ideals. Not everyone out there is a nice person. I don't hate Islam despite what you may want to think after I write this. I know that it is cliche, but I have worked with some very nice Islamic people. Their religion has simply been hijacked.

I think that it is nieve to say that the Iraqis don't want us there. If they support us publicly they'll get a bullet in the head. That is the kind of crap that they have to deal with. If we leave them now it would plunge the middle east into a massive civil war. The Iranians will move in. Kurdistan declares independence. The Turks will move in. Somebody will take a swipe at Israel. Israel will hit back. Then it goes downhill from there. People need to wake up.

The troops need to stay until the Iraqi government can support itself, end of story. How long was the US army in Europe after WW2. Last I checked we still have bases in Germany. Why were we there? Our good friends in Soviet Union. We were there to stabilize the region.

People forget the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Saddam had repeatedly snubbed the UN. They had repeatedly interfered with the inspectors. They did not fully disclose their weapons systems. EVERYBODY thought Saddam had something. Saddam was banking on the US chickening out. We'll obviously he gambled wrong. In the wake of recent history the US could not take the chance that Saddam would make a deal with Al Quaida. Saddam was a nut.

Do I like troops dying, no. Do I like war, no. Would I like this to be over tomorrow, yes. I think that a lot of mistakes were made. Debaathification was a mistake. The Sunnis were disenfranchised and did not vote in the first election. Its a very dynamic power struggle in that country. The goal seems to be some form of Yugoslavian federation. To be honest, partition should be the goal, but nobody would go for it. The Iraqis need to get a semblance of nationalism going again, but with two factions which put religion before country its tough. Yet again, pulling out without an agreement on the board simply isn't an option.

Yet to be completely honest here in the grand scheme of military history the losses are not severe. Go look at battles fought in WW1 and WW2. Plus there is no score card, that ended in Vietnam.

I do think that it is funny that the same people who want us out of Iraq want us in Darfour. *sigh*

As for the extremists in Islam, they need to be stopped. They do not like American / Western power. They want us completely out of the Middle-East. They want to re-establish the Caliphate. To do that they push us out, then they push the Israelis out, then they comprimise the various governments, then they turn on the Shia and Sufis (forcibly convert). Its not crazy talk. And I am not talking about average run of the mill muslims. I am talking about the real nut job terrorists. They are not doing this because they "Hate America". They have a plan.

If you think that you can't negotiate with them now. Wait until they have nukes. The liberal mindset on this fact totally baffles me. Do they hate America so much that they attack nationalism and the right by defending people who would totally destroy their lifestyle. Do you think that the Taliban would allow a tickling forum to exist?? Do you think that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would allow gay marriage or liberal culture?? Iran has dress code police for women. Women who wear un-Islamic dress are "talked to" by officials. Do you libs honestly want this. And don't say that it can't happen here. At least in the West there is political discourse. It goes to the people in one form or another. Look at the Iranian Theocracy do you want that for your government? Do you want a supreme religious council wielding a veto pen?

You guys in Europe are already starting to feel the political pressure. You have a lot more Islamic immigrants than the US. Do you guys have another Charles Martel in you to push the Moors back? Is there another defense of Vienna in you? I'm not just talking philosophically here. It has happened in the past. Do these immigrants want to assimilate? Do they respect your culture or do they see themselves as outsiders? Do they want your laws or Sharia? That is on your plate right now.

The simple fact is that the US is not going to leave the Middle East. It's not in our political interest to do so. So let's stop killing each other, respect each other and do business.

most iraqis support attacking us troops, this is the most extreme measure of "not wanting us there", so if you add the people who dont want us there but also dont want to blow us up, i would say you have a massive majority. the facts also show, that it is much more dangerous to publicly show that you want the occupation to end, even peacefully. but im sure danger exists for the other side as well, im not arguing its not, but you are leaving out a big part of reality. the rest of that paragraph is just right wing talking points and has no basis in reality, its simple propaganda.

With troops there, the iraqi government cannot support itself, that is the point. WW2 occupation of france and germany are completely different that the occupation of iraq and palestine, to compare them makes no sense.

Everybody snubs the UN, mostly Israel, but we dont bomb them, so obviously that is a moot issue. The US interfered with the inspectors also and made them leave. there are many people that thought saddam had little or nothing, including top former weapons inspectors. It may be nice to sit back on your computer and gamble with other peoples lives in other countries, but its quite arrogant.

Iraqis dont want partition , they want a united Iraq and that nationalism you want is 100% contrary to the occupation you want. In my humble opinion the best course is to support this nationalism, in its most rational of forms, which i feel presents itself in the large trade union movement in iraq as well as the independent progressive anti occupation forces. This again puts that at 100% odds with the occupation you support and which has been oppressing them with jail, raids, beatings, detentions, destruction of their property etc..

you are 100% correct about the evils with radical islam, you dont need to regurgitate them here for i dont think anyone was defending them or is terrible enough to support them. The key issue here, is what to do about it.

It was clear, even from the standpoint of the CIA, whose internal repports claimed that the the invasion of Iraq would only increase radical islam around the world, and within iraq as well. CIA reports since then have confirmed this fear. But they weren't the only ones claiming this however people chose not to listen for obvious reasons.

So again, the key point here, is your foreign policy is increasing the islam you claim to hate, not decreasing it. It is also extremely costly in resources and even more costly in lives.

you need to challenge your last sentence, yes its not in the political interest of us elites to leave the middle east and no they wouldnt have invaded iraq if its largest export were pickles. the situation is not black and white. but it is because of this interest and the way the elites pursue it that people kill each other, why we have this war and occupation, and yes the radical islam you claim to hate is directed related to it as well.

in short, stop supporting these leaders and their policies as step one to bringing about a better world.

cheers