Interesting points,
Notice however you seem reluctant to reply to Turkey's aggression, and Azerbaijan, your allies? Why, why do you support nations who themselves target and massacre civilians, what about the fate of the Kurds, do they matter little?
As a nation who suffered Genocide, you'd think Israel would support the Armenians, but no, you support Turkey, a vastly imperialist and racist state, do I need to explain to you about the history of Turkish nationalism (Ziya Gokalp, Arparslan Turkes, etc.)?
If you mean me in person, then this topic wasn't brought up.
I'm not aware of any Azerbaijani ethnic cleansing, so please clarify.
Regarding Turkey - it has a spotted past with Armenians but that his hardly relevant to modern bi-lateral relations. Israel is not concerned with Turkish past, rather with modern bi-lateral relations. Israel is also allied with Germany, despite germany being very very in the wrong, mere 60 years ago.
Turkish relations with the Armenians are for them to settle. Same thing with the Kurds. It is somewhat beyond Israel's ability to determine the fate of the Kurdish people. It certainly should be left to proper UN authorities and solved on a case by case basis in Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Personally I would like to see Kurdistan. Israel is infact to some extent allied with the Kurds. Historically Israel and maintained different levels of diplomatic, trade and other relations with them.
Israel is not an accepted mediator in the Trukish-Kurd issue and tries to maintain neutrality, while keeping both as friends. Kurds shouldn't terrorize Turikish people, but deserve some form of autonomy, and possibly independence. But it is not a black and white issue.
Hope that answers your question.
Now Israel has targeted civilians, need I remind you of the bomb on the UN school earlier in this year?
You should not confuse targeting with hitting.
War is a complex situation, where you have a 'shroud of battle' - especially for units in combat. You don't always know who is shooting at you and you don't always know who you're shooting at. Alot of mistakes and miscalculations are made.
Most of the Israeli casualties were friendly fire. Do you think that means Israel
intentionally targeted it's own soldiers?
No. It was a mistake.
How about the way Palestinians are treated, and dont give me the "there are many Arab countries" tripe, because you know full well not all Arabs are the same and those people are being forced off their land to make way for people who have never lived there in the first place, I agree the Hebrews are indigenous to Israel, but many Ashkhenazis who live in Israel are converts, basically their religion guarantees them land, how is this diffrent to radical Islam?
You make about 20 different claims in this paragraph and it would be very difficult to answer them all. I'd appreciate if you focus, or at least refer to different issues without mixing them.
The words "the way Palesitnians are treated" could mean a thousand things, so please clarify, and I'll be happy to tell you what I think is the official Israel position, and what is my own.
Jewish and Palestinian rights over the land
I don't think it is relevant to judge how many Ashkenazis are converts. You don't really have that information. Nor is it reasonable to set limits how far ago you've converted. Neither is it truly releveant in my opinion.
When I was younger I used to argue a lot about what percentage of Arab Palestinian population is really indigenous to the area, and what percentage migrated. And you know what I realized? That it doesn't matter.
The bottom line is this:
a) there exists now an Israeli state, that's supposed to give an answer to the necessity of a Jewish homeland.
b) There also exists a Palestinian people. No matter how they came to be, they exist and they want independence and they deserve it too. I acknowledge it personally and Israel acknowledges it since 1993. Arguing about who deserves what is fruitless.
Ethnicity vs. Religion in modern Judaism
I understand that you are concerned regarding the nature of nationality vs. religion in Israel. It is a very complex one, that Israelis often argue about them selves. Judaism is a very ancient religion. In ancient times, each distinct ethnic group would have its own religion. When the Israeli and Judean kingdoms were destroyed and the Jews were scattered, due to historical reasons, they kept living in closed communities, keeping a unique relationship between their religion and the "Jewish" (or shall we say - Hebrew) ethnicity. Converts were very very rare, and were quickly assimilated.
Furthermore, Judaism is not a religion that seeks to convert people. In the contrary, it challenges newly converts and makes them go through very rigorous tests. It has always been a seclusive religion. So the issue of fresh converts is a very very small one.
In the 20th century, the standard is that you have an ethnicity and a nationality and a religion and they're all different things. You could be a christian catholic, American of Irish descent. For Jews - they remained in their unique position - the tie between religion and ethnicity is pretty much the same. Jews are a tiny group. Converts are almost non-existant.
Jewish people rightfully got a state of their own. The oddity of being able to "convert" and immediatelly be accepted to an ethnic group is too small to be significant, in my opinion. It is also not that easy - since the different streams within Judaism, constantly fight about what makes a legitimate convert.
You say freedom, I ask for whom, is it fair that your freedom should come with the slavery and bondage of another? Do the Arabs matter less to you than Israelis, if so you are a racial nationalist and I shall not waste my time further debating
You've gone waaaay to far ahead of yourself. If you want to hear my opinions - ask.
I have no principal problem with a Palestinian state. I have no problem with Israeli Arabs. I live next door to a few, and I go to the university with a few.
I don't enslave anyone. Beyond that I have no idea what you are referring to, so please refer to specific facts.
Now the Talibaan, was part of the anti Soviet forces, deny it if you will, but its the truth, the US with its rampant fear of Socialism, aided fanatics to power who terrorised the people there for ages
If you have evidence or sources detailing how the US financed or supported people from the Taliban, I'd be happy to see.
You should also be careful in applying hindsight 20/20 vision. Just because you now know that the Taliban somehow gained from events in the Soviet-Afghan war, does not mean it was foreseeable then, or that somebody knowingly caused it.
Now see it from this perspective :
What if all Native Americans came and said "we lived here first" and threw out every other American, that would be illegal, but if Israel does that to Arabs it is tolerated
Given that 22% of Israeli citizens are arabs, who enjoy full citizenship and were not kicked out, I fail to accept the basis of your claim.
Contrary to what is perceived, Jews didn't simply come and start kicking people out. If you read the writings of early Zionist thinkers, they imagined a joined Jewish-Arab federation.
Most of the zionist groups who started the basis of Israel tried to achieve good terms with local arab leaders, and understanding about common interests. Eventually they met aggression by some groups, who were politically motivated (trying to keep local power) but used religion to motivate the local population against the possibility of Jews living side by side.
Later, when Israel was about to be declared there was a civil war, supported and fueled by foreign arab countries (Syria, Jordan, Iraq). This lead to many people fleeing and many people being deported, when the army met resistance in from their towns.
I think we're drifting from the thread coverage though.
Not less the comments towards Iran, which is the favourite country to be attacked by the NATO allies you say its good to form allies temporarily sometimes, I see Iran as good for many nations there, if it were up to your allies, Armenia, Kurdistan and Assyria would crumble, they would be wiped out by your Turkish comrades, sorry but I see no reason why people who suffered Genocide, should have it repeated
I fail to follow a coherent argument in what you said.
🙁
Armenia is not threatened by Turkey, and is an independent state. Turkey has not made any threats to the Armenian state or people in the last 50 years, as far as I know. Israel is in very good relations with Armenia too.
Israel in fact in good ties with various Kurdish groups, and throughout history has helped them in various ways, including against Iranian and Iraqi oppression.
Assyria is a name of a country that ceased to exist more than 2000 years ago.
Hope it helps.
