The war and our Enemy, and why we need to win.

[Celtic_Emperor]

I think it's important to judge a situation based on where you are, not where you'd like to be. It's called being in the present, and being realistic. It's called working with the facts, not what you'd like to be the facts.

The fact is, according to General Petraeus, we are fighting a better war than they are, and the statistics he provided in his most recent briefing proves it. According to his information, we're in a posture, or coming near to being in a posture where troop withdrawals are not a possibility, but an inevitability. The only thing that would turn this decision around would be if the terrorists consolidated their forces and struck more powerfully in the weakest areas we control. The fact is, these types of attacks are down, dwindling, and they are a shadow of what they used to be, as are the casualties they took. This demonstrates how the enemy's ability to hit hard is fading all over the board, and how they're not able to keep pace with us like they used to be able to. Their material is spread thin, and while there is always another terrorist to replace a fallen one, they're having to tap into their reserves in order to maintain any sort of manpower. This forces them to cut back on the attacks and concede ground, abandon it, or have it taken from them as they put their men where they need to be in order to stay on the board. They fear losing entire generations of terrorists, terrorist teachings, and terrorist brainwashing, and thats exactly what they're losing. They fear losing the experience and brainwashing rather than losing an individual who is not as committed. Problem is, they need the rank and file troops to do their bidding, and we're killing them all, thus forcing them to send out the veterans and senior officers (literally the uncles, fathers, and grandfathers). Entire bloodlines are possibly being completely wiped out. The more of them we eliminate, the wider the generational gap becomes to a point where they have to start all over with children, not fully mature men that comprehend what they're doing and have the experience to make it work and be effective. They'd be hard pressed to maintain any kind of threat, since they'd be busy drilling the terrorism into their young, which would take years to form a solid, committed terrorist. That time is what Iraq and it's neighbors need to solidify a peaceful government. We just need to give them that opportunity.

If we pull out now, that gives the terrorists time to recover and undo the damage our troops died to deliver. The purpose now is to weaken them so much that we don't need to be there to see their restoration, as that will be the country's problem. If, after we leave, the problem just resurfaces and the terrorists take over again and it's all back to square one, then it's not our problem anymore and we would know not to go back in again, having learned from the first invasion. We will have given them the chance to govern themselves free of terrorist rule, though, and if they blow it AFTER we're gone then that's just their fate and we'll know for sure that the effort expended to give them the chance was never worth it nor will it ever be again, regardless of what anyone thinks, as it will then be an undeniable fact that they didn't want peace that badly, even after we removed the roadblock keeping them from progressing. If they don't help themselves they're not worth helping anymore and thats something we can definitely walk away from.

 

[Betchass1]

The troops need to stay until the

U.S.-installed

Iraqi government can support itself, end of story.
........
People forget the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Saddam had repeatedly snubbed the UN. They had repeatedly interfered with the inspectors. They did not fully disclose their weapons systems. EVERYBODY thought Saddam had something. Saddam was banking on the US chickening out. We'll obviously he gambled wrong. In the wake of recent history the US could not take the chance that Saddam would make a deal with Al Quaida. Saddam was a nut.

People forget the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Reagan and Rumsfeld removed Iraq from the US list of terrorist nations in order to help Saddam against Iran. The CDC then shipped all kinds of viruses and potential biological weapons directly to Baghdad. Naturally they didn't know he would gas Iraqis; but they knew he would gas Iranians. They wanted him to gas Iranians. In other words, the U.S. never cared if he had WMDs. How can it possibly be irrelevant that our country supplied him with those WMDs? Stop and answer that. How can that not be an essential fact in the issue? The unavoidable conclusion is that him having them or not having them could not have been the motivation for an attack on his country. He had them in the 80's, after the U.S. had labeled him a terrorist, and they did not attack him.

I do think that it is funny that the same people who want us out of Iraq want us in Darfour. *sigh*

And they think it's funny that the same people who want us in Iraq want us out of Darfour.

If you think that you can't negotiate with them now. Wait until they have nukes. The liberal mindset on this fact totally baffles me. Do they hate America so much that they attack nationalism and the right by defending people who would totally destroy their lifestyle. Do you think that the Taliban would allow a tickling forum to exist?? Do you think that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would allow gay marriage or liberal culture?? Iran has dress code police for women. Women who wear un-Islamic dress are "talked to" by officials. Do you libs honestly want this. And don't say that it can't happen here. At least in the West there is political discourse. It goes to the people in one form or another. Look at the Iranian Theocracy do you want that for your government? Do you want a supreme religious council wielding a veto pen?

Been there, done that. It is part of Western history too. But now we have easy enough lifestyles that we don't worry about what our neighbors do. It was very different less than 100 years ago. When your survival is dependent on everyone doing their part, you tend to be intolerant of others straying from the way things are supposed to be done.

You guys in Europe are already starting to feel the political pressure. You have a lot more Islamic immigrants than the US. Do you guys have another Charles Martel in you to push the Moors back? Is there another defense of Vienna in you? I'm not just talking philosophically here. It has happened in the past. Do these immigrants want to assimilate? Do they respect your culture or do they see themselves as outsiders? Do they want your laws or Sharia? That is on your plate right now.

If one replaces all the above references to Islam with references to Judaism this sounds just like Hitler. You are justifying preemptive violence and citing xenophobia. You were correct: it does sound ridiculous to qualify this by saying you have worked with very nice Muslims.

 

[morgandee]

civil war -- i'm with vlad (hahaha oh wow)

...in america!

 

[august spies]

U.S.-installed


People forget the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq. Reagan and Rumsfeld removed Iraq from the US list of terrorist nations in order to help Saddam against Iran. The CDC then shipped all kinds of viruses and potential biological weapons directly to Baghdad. Naturally they didn't know he would gas Iraqis; but they knew he would gas Iranians. They wanted him to gas Iranians. In other words, the U.S. never cared if he had WMDs. How can it possibly be irrelevant that our country supplied him with those WMDs? Stop and answer that. How can that not be an essential fact in the issue? The unavoidable conclusion is that him having them or not having them could not have been the motivation for an attack on his country. He had them in the 80's, after the U.S. had labeled him a terrorist, and they did not attack him.



And they think it's funny that the same people who want us in Iraq want us out of Darfour.



Been there, done that. It is part of Western history too. But now we have easy enough lifestyles that we don't worry about what our neighbors do. It was very different less than 100 years ago. When your survival is dependent on everyone doing their part, you tend to be intolerant of others straying from the way things are supposed to be done.



If one replaces all the above references to Islam with references to Judaism this sounds just like Hitler. You are justifying preemptive violence and citing xenophobia. You were correct: it does sound ridiculous to qualify this by saying you have worked with very nice Muslims.

decent post betchass

 

[johnttickle]

I just wanted to thank everyone for posting some great posts. I may or may not agree, but I enjoy reading everyone’s views here. I have been informed to different ways of looking at this war, and I have been impressed and enlightened.

Thanks also to every one for being very civil to each other and by having a nice discussion, like we all were sitting in a coffee shop talking.

Mahalo and Aloha, John

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

civil war -- i'm with vlad (hahaha oh wow)

...in america!

"Ok, Zombie Boy! Now it's time to sing the National Anthem!....IN AMERICA!"- Bandit Keith

 

[revboy]

well, this is the first time we havent been able to go into a country and not identitfy the enemy right away

i honestly get all my information on the rumormill and drudge

 

[august spies]

There are some valid concerns in there, and by pulling out of Iraq we can use our army to actually address them. The consequences of Iraq are inevitable; the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds will have a prolonged, genocidal, civil war and emerge as three nations. We will slow that process and lower its intensity as long as we are in Iraq, and do so at the expense of effectively counteracting any other threat facing us (the ones from al-Queda for instance).

In the 1970's everyone was concerned about winning that quagmire as well. We needed to keep Vietnam from uniting under communism, because the whole region would follow, and pretty soon we would have a red Hawaii. The Vietnamese didn't follow us home and neither will the Iraqis. The Iraqis attack us for the same reason the VC attacked us: they want us out. The people who will follow us here would do so regardless of whether or not we are in Iraq. Furthermore, Al-Queda is comprised of Sunnis, and Shiites will and do hold the lions share of the power in that region now. Al-Queda will not be taking over Iraq when we leave, and neither will they benefit from a muslim on muslim civil war.

I think if you are serious about our security you should examine your ideas concerning the nature of the Iraq war, and its (lack of) relevance towards credible threats like the Al-Queda presence in Pakistan and the public anger toward President Musharraf. We need to address threats directly and logically rather than assuming that if we keep large numbers of troops somewhere "over there" we will eventually kill everyone who hates us.

good post

 

[Journia]

Again, I suggest...Reimbursements.

 

[TheChameleon]

I honestly have no viewpoint on this whole scenario, as i've decided that my opinion doesn't matter to the entire united states, so, why should I stay informed about it.

Either way, i'd like to say you guys are being really cool about this argument, on both sides. I haven't seen, "Well, you only think that because your stupid" or anything like that yet, which, honestly, happens quite a bit.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I wouldn't even call this an argument. It's more proper to call it a debate. An argument is far less formal, and as one would guess, more immature and out of control. This thread is neither.

I too am pleased to see it going well. This is a good example of a community at work. And, because that is the case, this thread has hereby been APPROVED! by my business manager (it's been a while since he's approved anything) 😛aw:

 

[thr33delta]

well, this is the first time we havent been able to go into a country and not identitfy the enemy right away

i honestly get all my information on the rumormill and drudge

you know im real sorry im like 2 years late on this, but man, where the hell have you been, do you remeber the conflict called vietnam...we couldnt identify the enemy there...

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

Well,honestly what you say concerns me.From listening to the news I hear we are supposed to leave in 2010 and that this war was to help Iraq be able to defend themselves from some enemy that wanted control over there;actually I heard like 3 possible reasons why we are over there including the one where we are there to stop attacks but also the one about just trying to gain more oil and September 11th just being a hoax but I don't believe that one.However,I don't or rather didn't fear another attack simply because of the higher levels of security we have.They would not be able to attack us with our planes again and why would they want to attack Florida it has no sentimental value to us like the World Trade center and the other buildings attacked by them on September 11th.Also Bin Laden was angry over some immigration laws not because of a religious problem.This anger goes way back and is not coming from something recent.There are religious extremist over there who would love to see us dead but they are all over and mostly do suicide bombings and kidnap tourists traveling abroad in 3rd world countries.If you watch Locked Up Abroad you can become a little more informed on issues like that.The only recent attack I have heard of was the kidnapping of a captain aboard a vessel off the coast of Somalia but he was released and is doing alright.He actually saved the lives of his crew by voluntarily umm,I guess you could say sacrificing himself to the pirates.Anyway this isn't going to become a WW2 or anything.I think we need to leave Iraq for now we can't stay there forever and I haven't heard of them making any progress over there or really anything other then more suicide bombings and what are we going to do to stop that?

 

[thr33delta]

You know your right, and i agree with alot of what you just said, but the deal over there is that we are making progress, last May-April timeframe there was some big leaps in progress you can look this up as well, there was and uprising in Sadr City, wich is apart of Baghdad, it went one for almost 3 months an at the end of the conflict with the JAM(Jihad Armed Militia) there leader Al Sadr, came to a cease fire with Coalition Forces, they had been attacking the Baghdad Green Zone with rocket attacks and suicide bombings etc, i know this becuase i was there, and i spent two tours over there, there is progress, just not wich affects us in america, more of the iraqi people, helping them get an economy and a govt set up, becuase i will tell you this, if we leave, in 5 years we will be back helping them fight off Iran and its allys, we are now responsible for them just like we are for Israel

 

[kopfhorer1]

...There are religious extremist over there who would love to see us dead...

And there are religious extremists right here in our own back yard who'd probably like to see a lot of us dead, or at least see us "re-educated". We'd better keep a very close watch on these so-called "megachurches".

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

Okay well,then how much longer will it take to win this war because for one we don't have a whole lot of money to fund this war and two I am tired of innocent Americans get killed over something we had nothing to do with.I mean we really need an overall game plan and some information on where the enemy is hiding

 

[thr33delta]

How much longer you ask, well we never will win, not without glassing the country...we have made progress, the more we make and sooner we make it we can hope that Iraq, and all of its people can survive, driving through the country seeing the patriotism the people have in their country rivals if not exceeds americas, all we have to do is unify them into defending themselves, and trust me, id rather not have to watch as my brothers(guys in my unit) die, ive seen it firsthand to many times, young kids with bright futures that dont make it home, all i ask for is support them, not the war, most of us dont want to be there, but we do follow orders

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

Wow,all of this is just to sad.I bet some of them don't even know what they are fighting for and it's just not fair.We need to get them home and find another solution.

 

[thr33delta]

We may not see the same view as the Goverment on why we fight, but we all have our reasons to why we do, mine the guys to my left and right, ive lost some great friends, and that is what gives most of us the strength to fight on, i believe in god in some form, and watching your buddy get half his face blown off right next to you, well it tests you in ways you cant know, we do what we do because we want to, its our choice to enlist, and from there we know what could happen, we dont ask for anything but to come back home to familys if we have them, most of us just want to come home, so we can go back

 

[Journia]

We may not see the same view as the Goverment on why we fight, but we all have our reasons to why we do

In the immortal words of Tonto...

"Who's we white man?"

*british judge style clearing of throat*

 

[thr33delta]

Journia, im going to take it your either strongly against the war, or you were there, either way, we all have to make a living in life, some by selling insurance, some by being doctors, others, well we grew up round guns so we kill people, and tanto is who i am, good lil native american following the chief

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

How much longer you ask, well we never will win, not without glassing the country...we have made progress, the more we make and sooner we make it we can hope that Iraq, and all of its people can survive, driving through the country seeing the patriotism the people have in their country rivals if not exceeds americas, all we have to do is unify them into defending themselves, and trust me, id rather not have to watch as my brothers(guys in my unit) die, ive seen it firsthand to many times, young kids with bright futures that dont make it home, all i ask for is support them, not the war, most of us dont want to be there, but we do follow orders

There you go. Just keep doing the outstanding job that all of you on the ground have done from day one...and then get on back to the good old USA!

 

[thr33delta]

thanks Rick, dont forget bout the air and sea though, unless we all work together, we wouldnt have done this

 

[Journia]

Journia, im going to take it your either strongly against the war, or you were there, either way, we all have to make a living in life, some by selling insurance, some by being doctors, others, well we grew up round guns so we kill people, and tanto is who i am, good lil native american following the chief

Well, I'm neither for nor against it really. I just saw a number of "we" and I j-j-j-j-jumped on it.

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

thanks Rick, dont forget bout the air and sea though, unless we all work together, we wouldnt have done this

Oh, definitely a total package. All our service members! And not only our troops. Several valued allies have taken some serious sacrifices to see this thing through.