Very importand!!!!SOS

[TkBill696]

ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 😢cry😢cry please vote YES here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084 please repost it everywhere

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

what is it for?

 

[meteor]

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since ww 1 its approaching a hundred years ago, at the last rememberance day service we only had 3 veterans left from ww1and i think one of those men died recently.

I'am at a loss to see the sos connection we have a lot of stuff going on at present in africa that i would like to see stoped, including all poverty and starvation, then theres global warming and our hudge carbon footprints, the list is endless.

why wwi stuff i know someone is going to say i have missed the point,maybe i have but lets lobby for current things,the world slump effects the third world just the same if not more than us.

sorry Armenia the above gets my vote for action. sorry to get on the soap box folks.

 

[RedMan01]

I'm sorry

But I disagree with meteor, it is our duty as human beings worldwide to recognise the Armenian Genocide, otherwise you are basically saying that atrocities can be ignored

To this day Turkey has racist Anti Armenian legislature like article 301 banning free speech of the Armenian Genocide, their Azeri/Tatar comrades in Azerbaijan have terrorised Armenians, most of whom were women, pregnant at that who were killed in in as late as 1988

I'n sorry, but you have no idea how much Armenians have suffered, if you did maybe you would understand how important this is

I as a Native American, a victim of Genocide, support the recognition of the Armenian Genocide

Shad Shenorhagalem for posting Malakas jana

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

guys,how can we begin to take care of other countries when we can't even take care of our selves;folks we are so far in debt (and still writing checks we can't cash btw)that we may go into another depression

 

[Violetta]

Aaaaand that weighs against recognizing genocide in other countries how exactly? That's like saying if you don't have a stable stock portfolio, you can't believe in the Holocaust.

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

QueenieBee, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but if you point your cursor over the underlined area in malakas666's original post, it will link you to a news article about this issue. The Armenians aren't asking for your money. They just want an official recognition of the atrocities perpetrated on their people.

Honestly, I don't know the story all that well myself. Perhaps if I knew all the facts, I'd vote "yea" or "nay", but instead, I'm that 0.08% that voted "not sure".

Undoubtedly, some terrible shit went down. If we're talking actual claims of genocide, we need to be talking about a systematic, organized approach to killing-off an entire people. Worse-than-Hell stuff happens during every war, and usually to the most vulnerable of the population, but genocide is a claim that requires substantial proof. As I say, I don't know all the facts, so I can't speak with any authority.
I'm balancing that with the fact that Turkey is a vital ally of ours(the USA in my case) in that part of the world. Politics being what it is, there are times for these sorts of proclamations. Now isn't that time for us. It sucks, and is an affront to the dead until some sort of official recognition is passed. The thing is, it happened quite a little while ago. Balance that with right now this very moment, in parts of Africa, Arab-backed Janjaweed militias, sponsored by Sudan, are exterminating entire tribes of peoples, ain't a thing happening to save them. Welcome to Earth. What else can I say?

 

[kopfhorer1]

And I myself have heard say that the "War On Drugs" is little more than a racist purge of African-Americans. (Comedian/activist Dick Gregory once wondered aloud how nine-year-old ghetto kids could find drug pushers, but the FBI couldn't).

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

I'm saying with all the problems we have is USA right now we can't focus on helping others and on top of that we are fighting a war against another country for questionable reasons.Should we acknowledge past mistakes yes;should we have to pay for what our ancestors did,no.I don't mind if people want to talk about history including the holocaust,I agree it was terrible,I can't even imagine suffering through something like that but I don't want to fight another country's president or dictator to make him allow his citizens to talk about it or make those responsible pay.I think they should maybe make a remembrance day for all those who suffered but WW1 was so long ago we really can't make anyone pay for it now.I don't see anyway the US could even help this situation.

 

[Violetta]

You don't pay a lick of attention, do you? No one's asking the US for reparations, because we didn't do it! The question being posed is whether the US government should acknowledge that the Ottoman Turks attempted to systematically eliminate Armenian people. There is no money or aid being talked about. It's acknowledgement of history. Read a thing!

 

[Darth Vegeta]

I voted yes. As a future historian i must say it has to be underlined just out of moral honesty. Ironically i had a Master Exam only yesterday focussing heavily on the Historikerstreit and the moral dishonesty of the West.
We work with dual values. Pointing fingers at Germany throughout the Cold War for Genocide and Warcrimes (which i agree should be condemned). Yet at the same time historians (especially left wing ones) had a tendency to go quite quickly over the even large deathtoll caused by Stalin's genocide.
Mao, Pol Pot, the Boer Wars (first concentration camps) are examples of others that are not 'commercialisable' and hence 'neglected' due to various reasons. Granted no book will really belittle them but it is stunning to see how context, timeperiod and priorities (plus risk) will get the intelligentia responding quite differently through what is all equally cruel, evil, twisted,... .
Nowadays the Aremenian question is something most people prefer to ignore among the higherups and the politically correct 'superior' intellects.
They basically feign a nosebleed due to their desire to see Turkey step in the EU. Not to mention they want to avoid entering conflict with them. Just as they are or were afraid to enter conflict (verbally/politically) over such moral issues with other states in the present and past.
I'm hardly a nice caring person when i look at these things. In fact i look at them quite neutrally and dry, or try to. And i don't even experience the same outrage as a lot of people do. But what does annoy me is the blatant and concealed dishonesty behind it. I hate it when people basically 'rewrite' history or work with double moral standards for their own gain.
Either a genocide is bad or it is good. Either you condemn it like crazy or you don't. You don't just say... "Aaah i have a feud going on with those damn Germans... let's make sure they never forget what they did!" while say other excesses get a few pages mentioned (at most) in a book and one moves on.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

You don't pay a lick of attention, do you? No one's asking the US for reparations, because we didn't do it! The question being posed is whether the US government should acknowledge that the Ottoman Turks attempted to systematically eliminate Armenian people. There is no money or aid being talked about. It's acknowledgement of history. Read a thing!

okay,that's it why are you always so bitchy?You always have to say something rude or mean?What did I do to you?I read the thing,I just didn't fully get it.If you're going to get so annoyed then don't read what I say.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

I voted yes. As a future historian i must say it has to be underlined just out of moral honesty. Ironically i had a Master Exam only yesterday focussing heavily on the Historikerstreit and the moral dishonesty of the West.
We work with dual values. Pointing fingers at Germany throughout the Cold War for Genocide and Warcrimes (which i agree should be condemned). Yet at the same time historians (especially left wing ones) had a tendency to go quite quickly over the even large deathtoll caused by Stalin's genocide.
Mao, Pol Pot, the Boer Wars (first concentration camps) are examples of others that are not 'commercialisable' and hence 'neglected' due to various reasons. Granted no book will really belittle them but it is stunning to see how context, timeperiod and priorities (plus risk) will get the intelligentia responding quite differently through what is all equally cruel, evil, twisted,... .
Nowadays the Aremenian question is something most people prefer to ignore among the higherups and the politically correct 'superior' intellects.
They basically feign a nosebleed due to their desire to see Turkey step in the EU. Not to mention they want to avoid entering conflict with them. Just as they are or were afraid to enter conflict (verbally/politically) over such moral issues with other states in the present and past.
I'm hardly a nice caring person when i look at these things. In fact i look at them quite neutrally and dry, or try to. And i don't even experience the same outrage as a lot of people do. But what does annoy me is the blatant and concealed dishonesty behind it. I hate it when people basically 'rewrite' history or work with double moral standards for their own gain.
Either a genocide is bad or it is good. Either you condemn it like crazy or you don't. You don't just say... "Aaah i have a feud going on with those damn Germans... let's make sure they never forget what they did!" while say other excesses get a few pages mentioned (at most) in a book and one moves on.

well,then you want people or rather kids to read about all of it in history class? They mostly teach American History in school now-a-days and it's mostly about the Indians for some reason.Also why do we need to acknowledge it if we had nothing to do with it.Wouldn't it just be their business to handle and not ours?

 

[the_jimmy_james]

well,then you want people or rather kids to read about all of it in history class? They mostly teach American History in school now-a-days and it's mostly about the Indians for some reason.Also why do we need to acknowledge it if we had nothing to do with it.Wouldn't it just be their business to handle and not ours?

What planet are you from?

Of course we want kids to learn about all of history in history class. Would you rather they only read about what white Americans have done?

Call me crazy but I took world and european history... in high school! This was ten years ago, too, so don't act like it's new. A lot more schools offer other more diverse things... asiatic history, african... all that jive.

And yes, I went to a public school so none of that malarky. Now eat.

 

[Darth Vegeta]

Well European and American history education is very politically correct... in some areas.
Slavery, self imposed guily and finger pointing at Germany for one are baked into the new streams of history. Yet at the same time, the crimes/genocides etc that don't suit the 'plan' are neglected. If just find it extremely annoying.

Frankly i don't care what others did from a moral viewpoint. I find it anachronistic to apply modern day morality to that of the past. But if you're going to do just that for one side, you should be consistent in all regards.

As for the 'justness' of acknowledgment Miss BeeBeeMari refers to, i'd say that's not my call to make. Historians should just relate facts, research things and make the information available. What society does with it, is society's business. It's not our place to push things through the throat (as some historians wish to do or are practically forced to do). But all viewpoints, events, societies etc should be attempted to be evaluated in the same neutral, analytic and correct manner.

 

[RedMan01]

Աստավաց, let me explain

In 1915, as part of Pan Turkism (an ideology to create a one race, one ethnicity, one religion only state called Turan, devised by Ziya Gokalp), the Armenians were eliminated as they stood against the two nations of Azerbaijan and Turkey, so by eliminating them, there would be a solid area and they had full access to the Caspian and to Kazakhstan (another Turkic country)

Armenians first were banned from owning weapons, then the men drafted and killed in unarmed labor battalions and then the women and children deported, rape and murdered in the Syrian desert

The Armenians who survived were either saved by Fedayees (Armenian Revolutionaries), Arabs and Persians (they have always gotten along well with Armenians, despite the difference in religion, for those who don't know, Armenians are Christian, first Christian nation to take Christianity as a state religion in 301 A.D, Arabs and Persians are generally Muslim) or by Kurds and some Turks who were against their slaughter

All this was done by the three pashas, Talaat, Enver and Djemal, who were Pan Turkists

Also, about who the Armenians are, they are one of the oldest Middle Eastern people, referred to as the people of Ararat, Nairi and Hittites, the country is next to Iran and Turkey

Armenians still suffer racial attacks, specifically in Azerbaijan where there are Grey Wolves in Power, a pan Turkist group

Thanks to my friend Pedro, who typed this and sent it for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qy9tdVs3VE (Armenian patriotic song by System of a Down, and Armenian American Metal band)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Guk2S82uM Daron Malakian from SOAD's dad, Vartan Malakian interview about Genocide and War

 

[hitansul]

Also why do we need to acknowledge it if we had nothing to do with it.Wouldn't it just be their business to handle and not ours?

i'm not agree with you lady, the history of america is the history of the world,our bussines ,your bussines and their bussines are the same, anyway, no occidental country will bother to turkey because america and europe have interest there, and turkey is a very strategic place and one muslim allied.
i dont say it is a good or a bad thing i only say what it happends

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

What planet are you from?

Of course we want kids to learn about all of history in history class. Would you rather they only read about what white Americans have done?

Call me crazy but I took world and european history... in high school! This was ten years ago, too, so don't act like it's new. A lot more schools offer other more diverse things... asiatic history, african... all that jive.

And yes, I went to a public school so none of that malarky. Now eat.

Well,all through my school years they didn't teach us about other countries only our own history.I imagine it may have been a good idea to teach us about the history of other countries but at the same time I feel like the past is the past and I don't have that great of an interest in it.I try to keep up with current times but what my ancestors and people in other countries did is their business not mine and since we aren't completely sure of the events I'm not about to say who is at fault or who isn't.The events of history is filled with an amazing amount of judgmental hatred and I am saddened by a lot of it.However,I do not have the full story and I don't like pointing fingers with out enough evidence nor do I understand why another country wants our acknowledgment.

Oh and btw,if we are going to teach American History it needs to be the full story including all races sweety not just white even if there was a lot of racism back then,we need to include the full story which they do so I have no idea why you would think I only want kids to hear ''white history''.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

i'm not agree with you lady, the history of america is the history of the world,our bussines ,your bussines and their bussines are the same, anyway, no occidental country will bother to turkey because america and europe have interest there, and turkey is a very strategic place and one muslim allied.
i dont say it is a good or a bad thing i only say what it happends

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that but okay.I think you're trying to tell me what one country does affects every country but I don't quite see how.

 

[RedMan01]

Okay, once again :

Why recognise the Genocide, well, why recognise the Holocaust?

Because it was a Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust was based on the Armenian Genocide, Hitler himself said "Who remembers the Armenians", when his soldiers asked them if they can get away with killing the Jewish people

The US was part of WW1, there are over a million Armenians living in America,
how do you think they feel when people refuse to recognise what happened to their ancestors, thats basically saying they are a liars and that they are faking their ancestors death

If this was the Holocaust, and someone denied it, they would be locked up, if its Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Greeks or Native Americans, no seems to care that much, thats what pisses the Armenians off about it

Just the other day Bill Handel made a racist anti Armenian joke threatening to finish what the Turks started, google Bill Handel Armenian comment

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

Actually, Toumaniantz is an Armenian surname coincidentally lol,

http://unzipped.blogspot.com/2009/06/armenian-tattooist-and-belgian-girl.html

:blink Now THAT is eerie.

BTW - I feel like teetotal crap for not voting "Yes" in that thread. Had I known more of the details, such as what you described, I wouldn't have gone with "undecided".

I take it the Turks are completely unrepentant for these crimes?

 

[the_jimmy_james]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that but okay.I think you're trying to tell me what one country does affects every country but I don't quite see how.

And that's why you're an uncouth yokel.

Okay, once again :

Why recognise the Genocide, well, why recognise the Holocaust?

Because it was a Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust was based on the Armenian Genocide, Hitler himself said "Who remembers the Armenians", when his soldiers asked them if they can get away with killing the Jewish people

The US was part of WW1, there are over a million Armenians living in America,
how do you think they feel when people refuse to recognise what happened to their ancestors, thats basically saying they are a liars and that they are faking their ancestors death

It always comes back to people who seem to just not understand that other human beings have feelings. As you point out, RedMan, there are a good many people with Armenian decent here in the states. Heck, you even pointed out to me once that the Kardashians are an Armenian family.

All of these people have feelings and it's a crime that so many folks here in the "Land of the Free" can't let our Armenian-American population be free from grief.

If this was the Holocaust, and someone denied it, they would be locked up, if its Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Greeks or Native Americans, no seems to care that much, thats what pisses the Armenians off about it

It would piss me off too!

 

[Betchass1]

And I myself have heard say that the "War On Drugs" is little more than a racist purge of African-Americans. (Comedian/activist Dick Gregory once wondered aloud how nine-year-old ghetto kids could find drug pushers, but the FBI couldn't).

Nine-year-old ghetto kids don't have to follow the same rules.

 

[Betchass1]

Well,all through my school years they didn't teach us about other countries only our own history.I imagine it may have been a good idea to teach us about the history of other countries but at the same time I feel like the past is the past and I don't have that great of an interest in it.I try to keep up with current times but what my ancestors and people in other countries did is their business not mine and since we aren't completely sure of the events I'm not about to say who is at fault or who isn't.The events of history is filled with an amazing amount of judgmental hatred and I am saddened by a lot of it.However,I do not have the full story and I don't like pointing fingers with out enough evidence nor do I understand why another country wants our acknowledgment.

Oh and btw,if we are going to teach American History it needs to be the full story including all races sweety not just white even if there was a lot of racism back then,we need to include the full story which they do so I have no idea why you would think I only want kids to hear ''white history''.

I think you have a point. Compare the amount an American student learns about WWII to what he/she learns of WWI, even. America didn't come soaring in to save the day and become everyone's all-time heroes in WWI, so, at least in my experience, it's kind of glossed over. I can remember a teacher specifically saying that at the time, it was called "The Great War," but that, looking back, it was not so bad compared to WWII. I no longer believe that. Death tolls were huge and deaths were grisly; there just weren't as many Americans involved.

On the converse, I've met a good number of Europeans whose knowledge of Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, and even Columbus is limited compared to mine. Granted, that's also true for many Americans, but most of what I know of those guys, except maybe Franklin, is what I learned in school.

I don't have the same feelings on history, I love learning about it, but I can see your point of view. And I think, despite the occasional indignant puffery, the majority think the same way. There are countries all over the world whose young population has chosen largely to move forward and embrace "progress"- even a little materialism- instead of apprehending the criminals among them, whose victims are still quite alive. The future always trumps the past, it seems. Maybe that's why the human race still exists.

On the other hand Germany has had to address its history pretty directly, and has done a stunning job of it. Both privately and publicly. And who knows, but I daresay their society has benefited from it.
I would also say that not dealing with these things, especially as they get further and further in the past, is inviting them to happen again. Period. Explain it how you want, point out all the other things we could be doing with our time and money, doesn't matter: if crimes aren't punished, they continue to happen. Sadly, though, I believe crimes like this will always happen, whether they are punished or not.

 

[hitansul]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that but okay.I think you're trying to tell me what one country does affects every country but I don't quite see how.

ha ha ha, yes , you are right i was trying to tell you that, what a country does affects every countries and if the country is USA the influence is bigger, dont you quite see how? there are many ways ,not only war ,economic,politic and diplomatic ways.