Why does everyone seem to hate guys?

[steph]

Not really. You and a few other schmucks have made this real easy for those of us with standards...
XOXO

Wow... you must be very conflicted when it comes to me lol.

 

[innocentsexcat]

Kitty adores men, the world couldn't exist without big strong men.

 

[Phineas]

TBH, I can understand where the OP is coming from.

For one thing, I belong to a couple of dating sites. Those sites attract, shall we put it, damage goods. In spades. One of them has message boards, kinda like this... and the amount of male-bashing that goes on there is jaw-droppingly overwhelming. All men are scum, where are all the nice guys, etc. - and yet, even though having been a member for about four years (don't ask me why I stay - it's a train wreck... then again, I guess that's why... you can't help but not look), I've gone on two dates. Both of them ended badly... one woman agreed to a second date and then never showed, and the other ditched me while I was in the restroom. Had the nerve to suggest we get together again, as well. So you'd think a well-educated, personable, intelligent, (apparently) good-looking guy, with a wide variety of interests, would be beating 'em off with a stick... given that all they meet are philandering scum looking to bang and bolt - but I'm not.

Guilty until proven innocent, of course - the reason (some) guys feel the need to prove they're not perverts is because they've been hearing women complain all their lives about guys who hit on them. "Ew, that guy was hitting on me." They don't want to be that guy. (Some) women can be downright cruel to men they don't like - I've witnessed it, other guys have witnessed it... so we don't want to go through that. In fact, for me personally, it's gotten to the point where every time I'm interested in someone I pretty much freeze up, then give up. Why? Because if I approach her respectfully, and not like a horndog, then I become a "friend". Oh, you're such a sweet guy, but I don't think of you in that way. But if I approach them like a horndog, I'm a pervert. Can't win.

Two of the folks posting on this thread know me in person. To them (Redmage fand Lindy) I flat out ask you to think about what you've said. To Red, given the amount of crap I've dealt with in the past regarding this topic, do you honestly think I'm bringing it on myself? To Lindy, ponder some of the conversations we've had on this topic in the past. (Your task is a little more complicated. Drop me a line off-forum if you need me to connect the dots for you.)

Yea, maybe 'most' guys who have problems with women bring it on themselves. Certainly many of the TMF's "All-Winners" are no-brainers. But there are those of us who simply don't know what the hell to do anymore, because we've been listening to the 'hate' all of our lives... and having it reinforced whenever we seek to pursue an interest of ours.

Sure, I respect women. Love 'em. Life wouldn't be the same without 'em. But obviously, doing this is not working - I've been single for two years since my divorce, and even before that, the well was dry. My ex was a rarity in that regard. To this day I'm surprised I landed her.

Now, the obvious response to that is, "you need to hang around better-quality women, because the lamers you've been spending your time with are negatively coloring your experiences". And I don't disagree. Soon as you find me some that aren't already taken, I'll be glad to give it a whirl.

Oh, and rather than hijack this thread with a bunch of people who feel the need to either convince me I'm wrong, if you want to 'argue' the points I've brought up, feel free to send them to my Inbox instead. My point in posting this was to provide a bit of counterpoint to the "no, it's just you, you perv" line of thinking. 'cause I really don't like where the relationships I see between the genders are goin' these days. In other words, I share the OP's viewpoint.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flame wars, already in progress.

* Edited to add;

My observations are more on the 'general' world of interaction than here on the TMF, specifically. But to be honest, knowing what women go through here, I would be very, very hesitant to approach any female TMF member out of romantic intention... whether she be a complete stranger or someone I already knew, precisely because of A) my past experiences as noted above, and B) the general distaste women here have for men approaching them romantically. Or sexually. Yes, I know they aren't one and the same, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said one didn't involve the other. If I'm romantically involved with you, I want to have sex with you. Trying to approach someone you 'like' then puts you into a double-bind. So... yea.

 

[LindyHopper]

Hi Phineas,

How's it going? Rotten apparently. 😛 Well, I'll do my best to shed some light.

Re: the bitter, angry women on those dating sites... my response to them is pretty similar to my (as well as Redmage's) response to the guys who think all women hate them: if all the experiences you're having are bad ones... you might want to ponder what it is you're doing that is producing that result. The fact is, most men are good people. Most women are, too. If your personal experiences with the opposite sex don't reflect this, you should take stock of your situation to figure out why, and consider whether there's anything you can do to change the pattern.

Re: you can't hit on women without being "that guy..." approaching a woman successfully involves walking a very delicate line between confident and arrogant, between flirtatious and creepy. I don't envy men this task! 😀 But when I think about the men who have managed it with me, here is the advice that comes to mind:

1. Learn to flirt. Most of what makes me categorize men into "friend" and "maybe..." involves their nonverbal signals: the way they position their bodies, the way they look at me, the way they initiate a touch. These skills come naturally to some people, but they can be learned by anyone. It is, in fact, possible communicate sexual interest without coming across as a sleazebag. You just have to learn how to do it.

2. Be willing to face rejection. If you keep any undertones of sexual interest under wraps, you are correct that you will end up in the "friend zone." Women don't respond to men who don't take chances, even though they can be downright cruel to men who do. It sucks, but it's true.

Basically, the difference between flirting and sexual harassment is primarily a matter of style. I'd suggest tutoring, 😉 as well as practice in a low-stakes environment like a bar.

Re: whether or not you're bringing this on yourself: I don't follow you around on a daily basis, but my impression is that you're not bringing much of anything on yourself. I rather doubt you're experiencing a lot of "hate" from women for your behavior. I'm guessing what you're getting is a lot more "indifference" than "hate."

We "hate" the men who PM us about cumming on our soles. We "hate" the guys who think that ass-grabbing is a legitimate come-on. But we like men who tell us:

By the way, here's one of my personal idiosyncracies: I really, really dislike pushy men, so I've determined that I will not be one. If I think someone is attractive as a play-partner I let that be known, and then I drop it. They can pick up the gauntlet when, if, and as they choose at that point... I'll be delighted if things move in that direction, and happy to have found another interesting friend even if they do not.

That was from Redmage, over two years ago. It got the job done.

It's sad that the nice guys are gun-shy because the assholes have ruined it for you. Nevertheless, the game is still playable - you just have to learn how to play it.

I hope that helps, at least a little. And if I've completely missed the point, feel to PM or e-mail me to help me connect the dots. 🙂

 

[Red_Feather]

Well, I'm a guy who is naturally shy. I've been on both ends of the line. Originally, not being experienced (and believing all the BS that the movies feed you on how relationships work) I charged in on my first few relationships. I made my interest very apparent, and the girls in question freaked. After this I became very withdrawn, thinking that the key was to take things really slow. Of course, I now got 'friendzoned' repeatedly. Only now am I beginning to find the balance that works...

...how does this apply to the thread? Well at no point do I think my problem was down to the women somehow having something against me. My relationship problems extended from my actions. If you're an interesting, non-sleazy guy and you're having problems with girls, take a look at your own behaviour. Believe me it works. 🙂

 

[Redmage]

Hey, Phineas.

I think you're "bringing it on yourself" in only one way: looking for a partner on a site full of what you know yourself are "damaged goods." I've never had much luck with dating sites myself, for the same reasons.

I'm not really good for dating advice. The best advice I've ever been able to give is to go to places you like and do things you like to do, and be open to the possibility of an eligible, simpatica lady being there to do the same things. I say "be open" rather than "go looking" because at least for me it always seems to work out best when I'm not looking for it.

 

[simulated]

I say "be open" rather than "go looking" because at least for me it always seems to work out best when I'm not looking for it.

Quoted for truth

 

[Phineas]

We "hate" the men who PM us about cumming on our soles. We "hate" the guys who think that ass-grabbing is a legitimate come-on.

No shit? That's not what I'm talking about, and you know it. In fact, I think it's really interesting how everyone is assuming the OP, or the other guys complaining here, have done things like this. Kinda like how I stopped telling people I was divorced because they'd immediately want to know what I did to make my ex dump me. 'cause y'know, if I'd been any kind of decent man, she wouldn't have.

To Redmage:

I haven't actually used that site to get a date in years. I just stick around to read the forums, 'cause like I said, it's a train wreck. On everything else... I'm not going to debate you. My experiences directly contradict yours, and have for over a decade. It works for you. That's great. It doesn't work for me.

Do I experience the hate directly? Not usually, no. The occasion eye-roll, awkward silence, squirming, made face, but not hate. On the other hand, there have been studies done recently examining the anti-male bias and perpetuated stereotypes in the media, child support/custody cases in the courts, and other such avenues. I see things like that, and I have to wonder. So, it's not really fabricated out of thin air.

 

[LindyHopper]

No shit? That's not what I'm talking about, and you know it. In fact, I think it's really interesting how everyone is assuming the OP, or the other guys complaining here, have done things like this.

I was assuming no such thing. My point was that some guys (not you all) have done offensive things in an attempt to pick up women, and that most women have had such an experience to complain about. Therefore, women hate on "asshole" men, and the nice guys who hear us hating get too scared to try anything because you're afraid we'll hate on you next. My point is that expressing your sexual interest in a respectful way will not get you hated on, and that realizing this is crucial to success. Most of you don't need to spend your lives self-sabotagingly gun-shy out of fear that you'll be perceived as an asshole.

To Redmage:

I haven't actually used that site to get a date in years. I just stick around to read the forums, 'cause like I said, it's a train wreck. On everything else... I'm not going to debate you. My experiences directly contradict yours, and have for over a decade. It works for you. That's great. It doesn't work for me.

See my advice, listed above, for how to make getting to know women in social situations work for you. To recap, that was 1. learn to flirt, so you come across as a person she could think of in "that way," and 2. be willing to face rejection, so you take advantage of opportunities when they present themselves. And I am completely serious regarding the tutoring and practice.

As Redmage likes to say, "If I can get pretty women interested in playing with me, anyone should be able to! 😀" You've seen us both in person. You know he speaks the truth. 😛

Do I experience the hate directly? Not usually, no. The occasion eye-roll, awkward silence, squirming, made face, but not hate.

That's because you don't do anything that should make any women hate you. You shouldn't be afraid of that, because you know you're not an offensive kind of guy. The reactions you're describing above are related to awkwardness, and they're things that a smooth conversationalist can work to avoid.

On the other hand, there have been studies done recently examining the anti-male bias and perpetuated stereotypes in the media, child support/custody cases in the courts, and other such avenues. I see things like that, and I have to wonder. So, it's not really fabricated out of thin air.

This shit has nothing to do with your dating problems... and even if it did, what the hell would it matter? There's nothing you can do about it, at least not directly. The only behavior you have control over is your own, and what you do with that is up to you.

 

[asutickler]

I've been having a fairly difficult time finding people to date lately... Although I think it has more with me getting old (I turned 30 back in September) than with women in general hating me. 😛


Either that or I'm a bit rusty. I did sort of swear off of dating for the majority of the past year...

 

[Redmage]

I've been having a fairly difficult time finding people to date lately... Although I think it has more with me getting old (I turned 30 back in September) than with women in general hating me. 😛

Oh, I do not want to hear about you being "old." I'm old enough to be your father.

Trust me, everyone has dry spells.

I haven't actually used that site to get a date in years. I just stick around to read the forums, 'cause like I said, it's a train wreck. On everything else... I'm not going to debate you. My experiences directly contradict yours, and have for over a decade. It works for you. That's great. It doesn't work for me.

Hm. Y'know, I'm no kind of authority on what women like - that would be Lindy, or one of the other women on here. I just know that there's something about me that most of them seem to like. I've never been able to fathom that myself.

But I know patterns when I see patterns, and they're almost always there for a reason. The tricky bit is that it's not always the same reason, even when it's the same pattern.

For instance, if a guy keeps running into women who hate guys, then chances are he's running into women who hate him, and is just assuming that they dislike all men. But in your case I think a big part of the problem is sampling error.

You've mentioned that the women on these sites you talked about all seem to go on and on about how awful men are. Well, think about it: the women who find men they like no longer need to hang out and post on dating sites, right? So the ones left are the hard-luck cases, the ones who create their own problems, and a few who are temporarily disillusioned and will be leaving soon when they do finally meet the right guy. No wonder it's a parade of horrors there for decent guys.

As for the freezing up thing you mentioned, I get that. Used to do it myself. You know the best thing that I did for myself on that? I stopped caring about it. Not in a "who the hell cares if women like me" way, but rather in an "It's OK if that particular woman doesn't like me" way. You could say that I stopped worrying about whether or not I was going to wind up in a relationship with any given women I talked with, and so I was able to get past the whole horndog/friend dichotomy. I just talked to them, and if I thought they were attractive I let them know, but I didn't focus on the fact that they were attractive. It was always just another aspect of them, and not why I was chatting them up to begin with.

I think what this has done most of the time is give the lady a third option, if she wants to take it. That is, because my behavior is neither classic "horndog" nor classic "platonic friend," I find that women can take me out of the "horndog" category without putting me in the "friend" category - if they decide they want to. And if they don't, that's OK too.

It's sort of like zen flirting. First there is a smokin' hot babe. Then there is no babe. Then there is.

Now, as to the ladies who decide they just have to get nasty with a guy. I've found that most of them won't do that unless you give them a good reason. I don't think you'll need to worry about that. But there are always a few who do it just because they're insecure themselves, or just for the hell of it. That sort is never fun to run into.

The only cure I've found for that is being as honest with myself as I can. If I run into one of those headcases I usually know it, because I try to be honest with myself about whether or not I've done anything to deserve the venom (and every so often, I have). If I honestly don't believe I have, and if trusted friends don't see anything I should have done better, then I let it go - her problem, not mine. This also makes it easier to take risks.

This is easier said than done, and I know that. It's not easy to keep open to possibilities without grabbing at every one that goes by. It's not easy to be ready to be happy with a woman in any of several different sorts of relationship. It's not easy to tell yourself that her craziness is not your fault without glossing over some of the times when it is your fault. It's not easy to hear women griping about men without taking it personally.

But it's worth the effort, and the mistakes. I keep myself going by remembering that people really aren't irrational, no matter what you've heard. They do things for reasons that seem good to them. Once you understand their reasons you can usually understand their behavior, even if you don't agree with it. And I remind myself that most women are as afraid of me as I am of them, even if most of them hide it better.

You're a decent guy, Phineas. There are women out there smart enough to notice that. You just have to go where they are. My advice is head over to Dundracon when it shows up in a week or so and see what lights on your arm if you don't act like you're watching. 😉

 

[MrPartickler]

I'll just quote some relevant things Lindy and I wrote in a related thread recently on this topic.

I can see how one can get that perception [that women are automatically more sympathetic to their TMF audience] since there are noticeably fewer disincentives towards outwardly railing against men. Consequently, it probably happens publicly much more often. That doesn't say anything about how bad "all guys" are or about women hating all men, or that all women are saintly princesses by default (sorry, ladies...lol), just that it's more socially acceptable to voice strongly negative opinions about men.

Yes. You see those dynamics around here quite often. A man starts a thread about hitting on an underage girl on a train, and TMFers, mostly male, show up by the dozen to rail against him. A woman starts a thread about cheating on her boyfriend, and she mostly gets support, of the "I hope you learned your lesson and find happiness" variety. If a man decides to criticize her behavior, a bunch of other people, mostly men, immediately jump to her defense, and rail against the man who decided to speak his mind.

So to me, the idea that "women hate guys" is essentially an illusion. But, again, I see how one can get that impression.

 

[Phineas]

This shit has nothing to do with your dating problems... and even if it did, what the hell would it matter?

And this thread also has nothing to do with my dating problems... which is why I specifically asked people who wanted to address my dating problems to do it out of thread.

However, because I have been actively dating over the last few years, I have been meeting a lot of single women, and by corrolary, reading a lot of literature written by single women, political feminists, and other vaguely-related authors. And a trend I have been noticing, coupled with the "shit" you mention, along with threads like this, and other such experiences, lead me to nod my head and go "y'know, I can see why some guys may get that feeling, and post threads like this."

So to clarify, I do not believe all women hate men. I'm pretty sure I said that in my original post. I do, however, believe that some men start to wonder if they do, based on experiences they've had. I cited a few of my own in support of that. No more, no less. Anything else is irrelevant to the topic at hand and should be discussed with me personally.

Therefore, women hate on "asshole" men, and the nice guys who hear us hating get too scared to try anything because you're afraid we'll hate on you next. My point is that expressing your sexual interest in a respectful way will not get you hated on, and that realizing this is crucial to success.

Again, I have met enough women for whom this is not the case to be able to again say, "my experiences contradict you." That doesn't mean I'm happy about that - it just means that, as I've told you in the past, you're a diamond in the rough. One of my closest friends, whom I've known for years (and who is otherwise an amazing woman), remarked off-handedly to a female friend of hers that she has no problem being extremely rude to guys in clubs when she "doesn't feel like being hit on". I'm talking cutting them down the moment they say hello, regardless of their intentions. She has since sworn up and down that she didn't mean it like that, and that she only does it to "guys who don't take the hint", but I know what I heard.

 

[LindyHopper]

And this thread also has nothing to do with my dating problems... which is why I specifically asked people who wanted to address my dating problems to do it out of thread.

I think those of us who responded in-thread saw that your troubles are so typical among men that there was a chance that someone else could benefit from reading what we had to say. Also note that conversation is a two-way street, and will quickly cease if you don't respond to our comments here.

However, because I have been actively dating over the last few years, I have been meeting a lot of single women, and by corrolary, reading a lot of literature written by single women, political feminists, and other vaguely-related authors. And a trend I have been noticing, coupled with the "shit" you mention, along with threads like this, and other such experiences, lead me to nod my head and go "y'know, I can see why some guys may get that feeling, and post threads like this."

I'm not arguing with the trend. I'm arguing that dwelling on the trend is useless unless you go the extra step of figuring out how to work around it in your own life.

Again, I have met enough women for whom this is not the case to be able to again say, "my experiences contradict you." That doesn't mean I'm happy about that - it just means that, as I've told you in the past, you're a diamond in the rough.

A diamond in the rough? What the hell does that mean? I'm unrefined? My current sparkle and charm isn't good enough for you?!?!?*

* Sorry, meta joke. Getting back on topic...

One of my closest friends, whom I've known for years (and who is otherwise an amazing woman), remarked off-handedly to a female friend of hers that she has no problem being extremely rude to guys in clubs when she "doesn't feel like being hit on". I'm talking cutting them down the moment they say hello, regardless of their intentions. She has since sworn up and down that she didn't mean it like that, and that she only does it to "guys who don't take the hint", but I know what I heard.

You know, I've been there, and I understand where she's coming from. I couldn't swear I've never done something similar myself. I'm certain that I've snapped at guys who didn't deserve it, and even when I apologized, it took a long time to repair that hurt.

I think this just goes back to Redmage's point about recognizing what is and is not your fault, and letting stupid behavior like that go when you know you're not to blame. I know it's painful... I just don't see a whole lot in the way of alternatives for a man looking to make a connection.

 

[Phineas]

A diamond in the rough? What the hell does that mean?

It means that you're sharp enough to cut even the hardest stuff, and shine brighter than anything around you. You're not so common as to be taken for granted, but whoever makes the effort to look, is rewarded with the discovery that so few experience, that they'll want to, uh, make a ring out of it and show it off to everyone they meet.

Or something like that.

 

[Redmage]

Again, I have met enough women for whom this is not the case to be able to again say, "my experiences contradict you." That doesn't mean I'm happy about that - it just means that, as I've told you in the past, you're a diamond in the rough. One of my closest friends, whom I've known for years (and who is otherwise an amazing woman), remarked off-handedly to a female friend of hers that she has no problem being extremely rude to guys in clubs when she "doesn't feel like being hit on". I'm talking cutting them down the moment they say hello, regardless of their intentions. She has since sworn up and down that she didn't mean it like that, and that she only does it to "guys who don't take the hint", but I know what I heard.

It is possible that you heard what you heard AND that your friend is telling you the truth.

 

[LindyHopper]

It means that you're sharp enough to cut even the hardest stuff, and shine brighter than anything around you. You're not so common as to be taken for granted, but whoever makes the effort to look, is rewarded with the discovery that so few experience, that they'll want to, uh, make a ring out of it and show it off to everyone they meet.

Or something like that.

Awwww.

Be careful now - if you keep saying sweet things like that in public, some woman might read them and think you're a catch or something... 😉