Why is the American flag offensive to some?

[dvnc]

Yow! Scorching sentiment, red. Seems like there's clearly tensions HERE, about there, as there seems to be in all the papers I read. Sorry to see that it's still so hot. Keep hopin' that'll resolve.

Note that I, an American, didn't jump in with supportive rhetoric. We (America) DID leave the commonwealth on bad terms. We just learned to play nicely afterwards. We had English citizens here, too.

Oh, and the moderator pitch, here:
please tone down from heated debate to reasoned debate. Your tone *seems* heated, whether that's the intent or not. Many here don't know your writing style, and may think your emphatic response is argumentative, where I interpret it as your writing style. I know you're too sharp to WANT to peeve folks or set off touchy moderators like me, so I'm just deliverin' the pitch so you know you're lookin' a good bit agressive, here. Ham's perspective is as valid as yours, regardless of it's opposition. Note that Q and I disagree reasonably, etc. It's possible, brother. Just takes a bit of extra effort.

dvnc

 

[ham tyler]

re:red rag to a bull dog

re: red indians post.

i certainly didnt mean to start an anglo-irish war here. leave that to the thugs on the street. i was merely using the northern irish context to demonstrate how contentious flags can be. to the vast majority of peace loving irish nationalists, the tri-colour is the flag of our nation and a proud symbol at that. i was merely pointing out how our flag is deemed offensive to some, and being irish and proud of my flag and nation and being peace loving, of course i am going to be biased in defence of my national flag, and please dont construe my defence of my flag as being pro-paramilitarism. i never once suggested in my post that the i.r.a were not responsible for heinous acts of carnage. all sides are guilty of grotesque atrocities and none are blameless. i take exception to u equating or making the comparison between an "osama bin laden flag" which is not a national flag, i am sure his association has an emblem, but it is representative of terrorism and not a nation, and the irish national flag. am i too assume that people in the uk also associate the tri-colour with armed revolution? your comments on the majority in the north of ireland being british is true, but they werent always there and british governments have conceded that there is no strategic interest in holding on to the north. however this is not the forum to flaunt the out dated anti-british, anti-rrish agendas. i think both our fine nations have progressed considerably since then and i am sure red indian is amongst the progressive minded, i think he took me up wrong that is all. but i have too agree alot of people here and the uk would be as happy to see the north set adrift, sad sentiments i know.

 

[Haltickling]

Flag abuse

IMO, the terrorist wing in the IRA hides behind the symbol of the Irish nation, abusing the flag as much as the Taliban abused the Afghani flag. The very fact that all IRA terrorists use the Irish flag doesn't allow the reverse conclusion; the Irish are certainly not a nation of terrorists. No terrorist group from whatever origin has the right to abuse any national flag!

 

[Strelnikov]

Hal's post tells me that it's time to throw another bomb.

An ancestor of mine was a Northern veteran of the Civil War. My wife's ancestors were on the other side, so our daughter has both in her bloodline. Soldiers enlist for many reasons, but the common ones were suppressing the Rebellion (North) and defending their homes (South.) It's easier to make a case for the Southerners, on grounds of self-determination. Bear in mind that the North didn't allow Blacks to enlist until mid-war, because the prevailing mainstream view was that the war was a dispute between REAL (i. e. White) Americans.

The Confederate battle flag was used during the Civil Rights struggle as a symbol of resistance to Federal authority (in other words, "Don't tread on me.") Some on the extreme fringes still use it as such. But in this part of the country it has other symbolism: pride in our ancestors. The Southern soldier exemplifies what's best about the American citizen soldier. I'm talking about courage, resourcefulness, fortitude, humor, perseverance in the face of adversity. After the war, some of those men went on to fight Indians in the post-war US Army. Most went home, picked up the threads of their lives, and helped to build post-war America.

The 167th Infantry (National Guard) is a direct descendent of the Alabama Brigade that fought with distinction under Robert E. Lee. There are Territorial Regiments in the British Army that similarly descend from units that fought on both sides of their Civil War. The British Army acknowledges the connection. It's unfortunate that the US Army can't do likewise. Maybe in another 100 years...

Strelnikov

 

[red indian]

No beef with Ham

You are right to say I am progressive minded Ham and I certainly have no animosity towards you or the Irish in general so dont get me wrong I am no bowler hatted Orangeman (dont they look RIDICULOUS in those "john cleese ministry of funny walks" outfits?!) you seem to aggree with me largely and I was giving a loosly unionist view as against your Republican view but your point about what a flag represents is a good topic for debate and there are a number of good contributions on this thread and I have no problem in debating further with you on it. My remarks about flame wars and black and deckers were jokes, not very well recieved ones it seems! never mind I will add them to my collection.



DVNC.Thanks for seeing my post for what it was,ie healthy robust debate and I can (just about) see that others may not take that view but I must say that i am becoming confused about the "rules" on this forum. I always try to make my posts witty and stimulating and sometimes I poke fun at others,but I never resort to foul language or personal abuse. However I have been on the wrong end of this kind of language from a Moderator, now I am a big boy and I can take it but I do not follow the logic of me asking a sraight question about a deleted post and being told to "shut the f**k" up" and then seeing a new post from the same mod saying how we have all got to stop being negative.

 

[dvnc]

Ham, fine response, sir. I laud your diplomacy.

Red, the culture shock here must be a monumental pain in the posterior, sir, and for that, you've my apologies. I do appreciate your recognition of my observation, and laud you your willingness to continue polite discourse. One day, I hope t'pull drafts with you and Ham, of Caffreys or Boddingtons from a proper keg, and discuss such where I can hear your emphasis, 'cause I *think* I know where it is, but text is so bad at carrying many colloquialisms. Note the volume of apostrophes I use.

As for the mail you received from one of the mods, I'm surprised, but appreciate your polite confusion, instead of the hostility with which some would take that. Your cool head about this is a relief to me. I don't understand why that happened, either, save that some tempers are apparently high at the moment. This too, shall pass. It's likely related to that thread I pulled, and the commentary in it. Do mail me if you've detailed questions, and I'll answer as best I know.

Hal, how d'you think we Americans feel, now that our President is waging war on terrorists. If the IRA are ever classified as such for our military's purposes, there'll be an uproar here like we've not seen since the 60s.

Strel, that's a sore one for the whole of the US, it seems. Too many loud-mouthed bad folk put a real negative on that flag. I used to see it as bad news, until a Southern transplant gave me many history lessons on that war from his family's side. I still dislike the negative part of that, but I can completely understand where it's a piece of Southern history. It's likely to be a sore spot for a long time, though, as you suspect. One day, our childrens' children may make right of the whole mess, 'round about the time that we're truly equalist in our treatment of EVERY adult citizen of this country. I'm waitin'...

dvnc

 

[Latin_Boy]

...and

I also read in the paper that a Colorado Congressman is proposing a bill that will disallow Federal help (i.e., taxpayer money) to any public organization that bans the display of the American Flag -- such as libraries and schools. In Boulder, Colorado, a library supervisor refused to display the American flag (again, for fear that it may *offend* someone); yet, she put up a sexual display across the hall that celebrated women's liberations. Can you spell double-standard? What Shame!

 

[shark]

I've heard about that story,too.Without going into too much detail, this is just another example of the cancer of political correctness. I'll stop here,just to be certain that my honest opinion about it,and its adherents,won't violate policy.I'm certain it will.

 

[dvnc]

Not at all, shark. Your post was well worked. it ain't that folksa ren't allowed to contest and even debate. It's just that there needs to be that whole respect and civility thing.

Banning flag display, within the context of the previously posted appropriateness for flags, according to the government (which the flag represents), seems daft to me. It's a symbol of this nation. If you don't like the symbol, you've a problem, here, 'cause it's not going away, and every time someone bites at us, you're going to see a multitude of flags.

I wonder why they thought the flag being displayed was a problem?

dvnc

 

[shark]

I'll take my chances answering that one.Many of these political correctness adherents are also globalists and do not believe in any national sovereignty.They believe that all nations should welcome everyone on the globe as a citizen of every nation.To reach these goals,they try to both erase peoples' belief in sovereignty and also control thought by use of discrimination,harassment,and hate speech charges.The Clinton administration has already done so to protesters of their policies.
Many see PC as just being civil,but if you take a good hard look, you will find nothing more that thought control via criminal and civil suits.Hence,anything that can be considered offensive can become a civil or criminal case,unless it meets PC criteria.This,of course,is whatever the PC crowd agrees with.AS I had mentioned before in a post,these adherents of PC have seen fit to find work in places to use as bully pulpits:government,media,and academia.If you need proof,look at how our government bureaucracies,high schools,colleges, even grade schools,and most of our media operate.It's not hard to see if you look and be informed.

 

[shark]

Just to be as accurate as possible,we'll call it behavior control..at least until the mechanisms are in place for further "progress".

 

[dvnc]

Removing the display of the flag is to further the cause of some unnamed group of people, who are globalist? Wow. That seems a might extreme to me, sir, but my disagreement of the concept is only one man's perspective.

By your description, why would you stay here? Given that we, the moderators of this merry little forum, can "control" your thoughts, being that we can and do remove posts when they're deemed offensive by the moderators, especially when complaints come flyin' in to us, I'm surprised that I'm not being implied as a player of this united invisible front.

Your rhetoric reminds me of mom's friends in the 60s. By their notion, we're late to be totally mind controlled, 'cause the talk then was that "the man is oppressin' us" and we would be living 1984 in real life, soon enough. I do hope you, and they, are mistaken in the view that such a silent and largely invisible front is able to manipulate the world.

I do, however, respect your perspective, and am glad you posted it. Thanks for that.

dvnc

 

[shark]

I think you're confusing this forum with the daily involvements of people in the US,dvnc.What was the last time a moderator told a posting party that they could only post about a story if they told half of it...the PC half?
Example:A friend's boy was doing a report on Daniel Boone.After all the BS,he needed the principal's written permission to use a cardboard tomahawk and knife(zero tolerance),and was not only not allowed to use a cardboard gun,(PC believes in strict gun control),he was not even permitted to say that Daniel Boone hunted(PC is also anti-hunting).
I've never seen this type of control used on this forum.
Of course,there is the grade school boy who got in trouble for kissing a girl schoolmate:sexual harassment,you know.Another PC pet project.
Need more?...I got them.
Again,I've never seen this type of control used in this forum.
Hell,I hope I'm wrong about this,too.Unfortunately,incidents I've seen and read about aren't too encouraging.

 

[qjakal]

Am I Late?

Hate when I miss interesting threads...damn RL!

First, I have NO idea what dvnc is talking about...we never disagree, unless he happens to be wrong. 😛

Secondly, Holy Hornets Nest BatModerator!...the IRA and the turmoil in that green paradise are second only to the MidEast in complexity and length of history. Tread carefully, my fellow TMF'ers. Breaking away from Britain has had very good and very bad results throughout history.

PC and globalism aren't to be "lumped" together so casually in my opinion. Globalism is a worthy goal and has merit as a concept. PC can be a way of avoiding confrontation about issues that NEED to be discussed at times if we are ever to resolve them. Not all of PC is bunk, and again, the theory has value, but the execution of the principles they espouse can be lame at times. They vary from sublime to ridiculous far too quickly overall for my taste...

Strel, my ancient friend, the flag you discuss has so many meanings depending on whose view it is seen from...I know some of the charm of the South through extended travel, but I have also seen its ugly underbelly as well through the troubles my sister had when living among the citizens of Tennessee and your own fair Bama. She's no angel, but there's some issues down there that need some attention. You are in a fairly unique position, having lived some of your vast lifespan (guys...he's reallllly old) in both spots, so I think I'll defer to your judgement in this area (sound retreat men!).

Red Indian...haven't seen you in my usual threads....so this is where you've been stirring the pot? I miss your troublemaking thought provoking insights! Visit the Religion thread once more, eh?

Just poking my snoot in...as you were! Q

 

[red indian]

"trouble maker"? Me?

You must have the wrong guy Q!! as I write I can feel my splendid new beard sprouting on my chin and i have thrown all my bryan adams cd,s away. My bare back horse riding skills are coming on a treat and my desire for women dressed in blue mail bags grows by the day. Those old lee enfield rifles take a bit of getting used to as does the diet of raisins and green tea (to go) but you would be suprised how quickly you get used to walking round with an over cooked omelette balanced on your head. So take my advice Q and keep those posts positive and throw that razor away. Long live the "new rules" crusade!!

 

[dvnc]

I think you're confusing this forum with the daily involvements of people in the US,dvnc.What was the last time a moderator told a posting party that they could only post about a story if they told half of it...the PC half?

You're mistaken in your thinking, sir. I'm doing nothing of the sort. I also chose to take no offense in a personally-pointed response from you. It speaks for itself.

We've not a political correctness restriction here. We've a civility restriction. We, you and I included, get to disagree, civilly. You can't expect to deride me, nor can I randomly remove your post, simply because it disagrees. We must "play nice". Note, though, that many posts don't agree around here. They just do as you and I do, discoursing without malice.

That ONE moderator once misstepped is a historical point already. Forgive, and move forward, is my perspective, there.

Example:A friend's boy was doing a report on Daniel Boone.After all the BS,he needed the principal's written permission to use a cardboard tomahawk and knife(zero tolerance),and was not only not allowed to use a cardboard gun,(PC believes in strict gun control),he was not even permitted to say that Daniel Boone hunted(PC is also anti-hunting).

I've no experience correlating this, and no source to prove it as real. It does sound inane. This isn't countrywide, or prevalent, to me.

I've never seen this type of control used on this forum.

Not surprising, fortunately. One must offend to force us to remove the post. Witness that you and I actually civilly disagree with one another. Q and I do such, as do Strel and I, and he and Q. Permanent passivity is a drag.

Of course,there is the grade school boy who got in trouble for kissing a girl schoolmate:sexual harassment,you know.Another PC pet project.

By THAT logic, sir, this nation would not have persisted. We kept slaves for the first decades of it's infancy. That ALONE contests our "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and all that.

People do stupid things all the time. These dopes make the papers. No one else does like 'em after the papers circullate such for long enough.

Need more?...I got them.

Again,I've never seen this type of control used in this forum.
Hell,I hope I'm wrong about this,too. Unfortunately,incidents I've seen and read about aren't too encouraging. [/B][/QUOTE]
And you believe everything you read and hear? 😉 I tease, brother, but there's a grain of truth to that thought. Someone else's money, from this forum, is PAYING so we have the fun of this. It's a fight-free, hostility free, undominated forum, happily, where a body can come on and disagree with the perceived authority.

As for your proof, I still disagree. In a nation of as many millions as have we, the spot examples are proof only of corralling incidences at random. I don't see what you see, though I see lesser similarities on occasion. Idiocy abounds, though, and you and I are always going to see stupid people steppin' backwards on occasion. I don't view that as control from "the man". I view that as small-minds mis-stepping, and as long as informed minds slap 'em forward to the present, I've no worries.

When you've documented 1% of the nation doing such, clue me, brother. In so small a number as I've seen reported, it's just a proof that there's some dumb folks here, same as everywhere else in the world.

OTOH, thanks for debating, thus far. It's good to see more of us that can disagree without hostilities.

All of this, and Q spoutin' Globalism, while red indian spoofs louder 'n bombs. I love this place.

dvnc

 

[shark]

I do believe that the posting dvnc just quoted said exactly that there was no such PC type censorship on the TMF.
As for being personally pointed,it's fairly obvious that we two have been talking to each other directly for a while.What there was to take offense to I can't seem to locate.
As far as proving anything,I don't actually give a flying f**k who believes me and who doesn't.No skin off my back.I've already posted one website one can visit if he or she chooses to,and there are others.pPeople will believe as they wish,one way or another.
Seems that communication is a problem here...maybe it's better that I just stop attempting it.

 

[dvnc]

As for what could offend, shark, it could be contextually mistaken, and rather than get trivial about it, I'm gonna take ya at your word, and shrug the notion. No offense means no harm, and thus no foul, brother.

It'll be a sad thing if you stop attempting to communicate here, and I'll miss ya, by virtue of the fact that you're participating. Don't know what you're finding problematic, but I hope you resolve it for yourself in a way that works for you. Clearly, you'll do as you will, but I hope you consider stickin' around. At some point in the foreseeable future the topics here will be more about tickling and the interactions between 'lers and 'lees, and it'd be a shame if you missed it, 'cause clearly, you took the effort to join us.

Another $0.02 contributed,

dvnc

 

[qjakal]

PC paradise....

Okay, now I'm gonna jump in the water with the shark a bit! They just okayed prayer for Ramadan in the schools...wtf is that? I disagree with restricting silent prayer of ANY type in school(you know you prayed like crazy before the SATs, we all did), but to allow selective groups to openly participate while others cannot during THEIR high holy days is ridiculous! Now I have a problem...and so I react and begin to take action. I write to appropriate school board officials and work my way up from there, and I begin to tell other people about this so hopefully we can get some word of mouth movement into action as well. This climate CAN be battled, but it takes effort, and that's what has been lacking and has allowed a decent concept to devolve into this nitpicking overanalysis of every word, gesture and action that constitute real life.... Q the incensed....grrr...hey, that would make a good icon>> :grrr

 

[dvnc]

What? That's stupid. If you allow one, it's unfair not to allow all. That, in and of itself, is just not smart. Either there is a separation of church and state, or there isn't.

There ARE alternatives for folks wanting religion mixed with their schooling, that AREN'T state-funded.

Q the incensed, huh? I want some Q incense. When I meet Dave2112, with his half-lidded eyes and the indescribable smokes, I wanna give him Q incense. 😉

Ever wiley,

dvnc

 

[red indian]

Man Eater

Great posts shark, lots for me to think about and i hope we do hear from you again because along with a number of others you stimulate debate which( as I have said before in this place)is what a forum needs. You are abrasive, provocative and entertaining. Long may it continue.

 

[shark]

Let's try this

Here are some sites that may be of interest in this discussion:
www.warroom.com
FOXNEWS.com.....oreilly factor...this show can also be seen at 8pm est on fox news
It would be easier to put the references here,as i type like molasses runs.These sites may be considered right wing by some,but there are others even more so.Besides,out left-leaning media is an overrated joke for a news outlet.
Just this week,the oreilly factor has been talking about a California school district where it was decided not to put flags in the classrooms because:
it might offend someone
it might create a disturbance
a teacher said it might cause a discussion she was not prepared for...maybe this one should find a job teaching kindergarten.

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

I don't want to sound harsh, but any American who has a problem with America just shouldn't be here. Why not just move to a country you like better?

 

[Strelnikov]

Muslim Students

I'm sure the rationale was political correctness - bending over backward to be fair to those that many consider to be the enemy. But it's really not a bad idea. One of the Five Pillars of Faith is to pray five times daily. My Muslim co-workers at a former employer used their morning and afternoon smoke breaks and lunch hour to pray in a conference room (during Ramadan, Muslims refrain from eating, drinking and smoking during daylight hours.) Never caused a problem, nor will accomodating the students who want to do likewise.

Now we need to get the school authorities to accomodate Christian students who want to do the same. Some students around here do it guerilla style - meet at the flagpole at an appointed time - it would be nice to let them use a heated/air conditioned room instead. Hindus and Jews too - the more the merrier. Anyone who chooses to take offense, that's on them for making that choice.

Strelnikov

 

[qjakal]

Strange World

It does seem illogical to "prevent" a peaceful activity from occuring, doesn't it? But there's a vocal minority that seems convinced that the downfall of society is only a prayer away. Q