Are images of underage cartoon characters now permitted on the

TMF Jeff · Nov 13, 2008

drew70 said:
I started this thread with earnest intentions.

That's a lie drew, and it's why I don't bother debating and discussing things with you. You hide behind lies so constantly that it's impossible to deal with you as anything but a troll.

ViperGTS · Nov 13, 2008

The simple minded such as Drew are easily influenced.

lilyisticklish · Nov 13, 2008

I can honestly say that I see both sides (MTPJeff and Drew20). I understand why this picture is posing a problem but what I do not understand is why members of this forum are resorting to the high school method of dealing with the situation, insults and curses. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I wish that this was being handled in a more civilized, and respectful manner. I personally do not have an issue with the picture that was posted or the questions that were raised after the picture was posted. The problem that I am having now is the repetitiveness of the arguing and the downright rudeness that is being exhibited. I suppose it is too idealistic of me to hope that people can be grown up with a discussion like this isn't it?

CrystalLight · Nov 13, 2008

lilyisticklish said:
I suppose it is too idealistic of me to hope that people can be grown up with a discussion like this isn't it?

You obviously don't follow politics, huh?

baldadonis · Nov 13, 2008

lilyisticklish said:
I can honestly say that I see both sides (MTPJeff and Drew20). I understand why this picture is posing a problem but what I do not understand is why members of this forum are resorting to the high school method of dealing with the situation, insults and curses. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I wish that this was being handled in a more civilized, and respectful manner. I personally do not have an issue with the picture that was posted or the questions that were raised after the picture was posted. The problem that I am having now is the repetitiveness of the arguing and the downright rudeness that is being exhibited. I suppose it is too idealistic of me to hope that people can be grown up with a discussion like this isn't it?

Because this thread ceased to be about a debate over whether not the picture should have been allowed to be posted on the forum some time ago, and has morphed into an outlet for some veteran members to vent some very long-standing grievances.

baldadonis · Nov 13, 2008

CrystalLight said:
You obviously don't follow politics, huh?

Haha. Wait politicians can be uncivil? 🙂

lilyisticklish · Nov 13, 2008

CrystalLight said:
You obviously don't follow politics, huh?

No I do not... they just piss me off and cause me the same aggravation as this thread lol.

baldadonis said:
Because this thread ceased to be about a debate over whether not the picture should have been allowed to be posted on the forum some time ago, and has morphed into an outlet for some veteran members to vent some very long-standing grievances.

Yeah I understand that

CrystalLight · Nov 13, 2008

lilyisticklish said:
No I do not... they just piss me off and cause me the same aggravation as this thread lol.

Well, you have an idea about them. -- That's life.

baldadonis said:
Haha. Wait politicians can be uncivil? 🙂

stfu, Jew. Go make me some-- lawl.

drew70 · Nov 13, 2008

MTP Jeff said:
That's a lie drew, and it's why I don't bother debating and discussing things with you. You hide behind lies so constantly that it's impossible to deal with you as anything but a troll.

You're a fine one to be talking about lies, Jeff. No, what I said was the truth. And the fact that others agreed demonstrates that it was a valid point. You lied to me when you told me we could debate this privately. Your labels of troll, asshole, etc. are just meaningless drivel that you can't even back up. I've done everything by the book. I've followed all the rules. You on the other hand, tell people to "Shut the fuck up," call them assholes and other names. I don't do that. Because I'm not the troll on this forum. I follow the rules, and you know it.
__________________

-Hari- · Nov 13, 2008

For all 🙂 my take on this whole thing

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EY69LLSO0xM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EY69LLSO0xM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

CrystalLight · Nov 13, 2008

Or one for the OP topic.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YwNVE37BGVE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YwNVE37BGVE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Redmage · Nov 13, 2008

jim66e said:
If a person professes a set of rules, looks at a situation, determines it is a violation but of a trivial mannor and therefore ignores it, that is hypocracy.

Just FYI, that's "hypocrisy." If you want to come across with an authoritative definition, it helps to spell the word you're defining correctly.

That said, the definition isn't quite right. Only robots (and perhaps Lawful RPG players) are unable to recognize when judgment is called for in applying a rule or law. Applying that sort of judgment is not hypocrisy - in fact following any set of rules robotically is usually foolish.

For example, someone lives by the rule "Lying is wrong." One afternoon he's out walking when a young man, clearly frightened, runs past him at breakneck speed and ducks into an alley. A moment later four other young men wearing gang colors race around the corner. Two of them are carrying guns. One of them accosts our hero and says, "Yo, man, we saw that punk run down here. Which way did he go?"

Now, our hero COULD say to himself, "I must never lie," and helpfully direct the gangbangers to the alley, where they kill the young man they were chasing. Or he might exercise some judgment about whether or not the truth is really called for in this situation, and tell the gangsters, "He went into that old building over there."

Hypocrisy is a matter of pretense. It means pretending to hold values or possess virtues that one does not really hold, particularly if someone holds others to a standard that he or she doesn't care to meet. But one can hold to a set of values without being enslaved to them.

Sandrock74 · Nov 13, 2008

Amnesiac · Nov 13, 2008

FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that illustrates the problem with zero-tolerance society. On one hand, you have people who rely on unwritten and arbitrary codes of subjective morality to determine judgment and action...and on the other hand, you have left element progressives who codify prohibitive legislative codices to determine judgment and action.

BOTH policies--drew exhibiting elements of both former and latter--still illustrate that human beings STILL RELY ON EXTERNAL FORCES TO MAKE THEIR JUDGMENTS FOR THEM SO THEY CAN BE EXCUSED FROM USING THEIR FUCKING BRAINS.

Perhaps it might be scary to face the disastrous potential of allowing such unpredictable possibilities to exist freely, but funnily enough, there is a common thread penetrating all of them: LOGIC.

LOGIC is often the glue that justifies the spiritual interpretations of moral codes. LOGIC is often the SOURCE of secular civic philosophy.

Funnily enough, LOGIC requires the capacity for abstract thought in order to make determinations, many of which change circumstantially without losing its inherent through-lines. This would imply that regardless of which side of the spectrum you are on, the rules and policies we set as any society REQUIRE THE COMPLEX ABILITY TO THINK...although afterwards, we tend to abandon the practice and let the system run on auto-pilot and then wonder why things fuck up when they do.

Logic would dictate that "if A, then B, then C; if A, then B, then F, then C is indirectly related to F."

So, in consideration of common sense/logic, here are two salient points.

I. The pic was posted by Bella.

Bella's a mod, yes, but she's not a pedophile. She's also a mother of 2. If a non-pedophile mother-of-two posts a picture like that in the interests of humor and self-referentiality, then I think it's safe to say that upon finding the drawing...SHE DECIDED IT WAS FUCKING OKAY TO PUT IT UP!

And since the mods evaluated it and LEFT it up, I'm pretty sure THEY CAME TO THE SAME FUCKING CONCLUSION!

II. The TMF is owned by Jeff.

Jeff has owned the TMF since it's inception. He's unwillingly created rifts with other communities BECAUSE of his strict policy on minor material. In all that time, THE FBI HAS NEVER SHUT HIM DOWN. HE HASN'T BEEN ARRESTED. I think it's safe to say with his track record that HIS EXPERIENCE CARRIES THE MERIT TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

And while I can understand the concerns that others have expressed, especially in relationship to the "slippery slope scenario" or "policy shift trends", because they want to ensure that the safeguards they've enjoyed won't silently erode. Good concern, but I feel a bit overreactive...it's a bit early to tell if that's happening, and considering the moderation team currently assembled, I'm quite certain that if not the moderators, then definitely the community in general, will be keeping an eye out in the case that does happen.

But this is a problem that drew currently exemplifies; for all of his rather ingenious insights and abstract perspectives he tends to have, drew exhibits the behavior of the fringe-element of the left-bank philosophy: that everything not classified within exhaustively delineated criteria inside officiated codices is immediately suspect and maliciously subversive. As far as I'm concerned, it illustrates my theory of the undercurrent of persecution complexes that ticklephiles seem to suffer from.

The same logic that determines the laws to which one/you subscribe would also allow for the logical analysis of subjective interpretations within the questionable material on a circumstantial bases. There is a difference between a boxcutter and a broadsword, but if all you consider in your judgment is that they are both sharp metal objects, then you've entirely obliterated the complexities of abstract thought that you used to create the laws you are using to make the current judgment!

Soda Bobinski · Nov 14, 2008

I don't really have any history w/drew70. I can't say that I've ever had a problem w/him or experienced any "run-ins" w/him as long as I've been a member of this forum.

Being that I am a TMFer , though , I'd have to be pretty blind to not see that drew70 does not get along w/many other members here & vice-versa.

Still , there have been times that I've agreed w/what he's said in certain posts in any number of threads.

So , as a "bystander" & as someone who doesn't have any previous animosity towards you , drew70 , you should know that I haven't any "agenda" against you.

But I gotta say , man , I think this :

drew70 said:
I'll issue you the same challenge I've always issued. Show me any example of where I've broken the posted rules of this forum. The truth is you CAN'T. You never have, and you never will. Even now I'm maintaining the established forum protocol which you discard at your every whim. You continually boast of how "even handed" you are, but you are at best an ill-tempered loose cannon and everybody knows it. Your Geshtapo strong-arm tactics are seen by all, Jeff. Every time you shut me up with flimsy excuses of being "off topic" EVERYBODY sees it. You refuse to face me in open debate. You always hide behind your admin status and use it to your every advantage. Every time I bring an issue your way, you lose your temper and refuse to deal with it. I've never seen a forum admin behave as disgracefully as you have, and you've brought shame on this entire forum.

... makes it fairly clear that MTP Jeff hit the nail on head here :

MTP Jeff said:
Because I know that the real reason you started it isn't that you care about that picture. It's because you love to find opportunities like this, to bust balls and make things as difficult as possible. You love to find seeming contradictions like this and make huge deals out of them.

You're clearly not stupid , drew70 ... you seem like a pretty smart cookie. I think you were able to "get" the true intention & see the humor of the cartoon that BellaRisa posted.

But like MTP Jeff stated , I think you saw an opportunity in that to kinda "stick it to him" a little. I think that you're upset over how you've been treated by him in the past ... justifiably so or not ... & decided to start a thread to stir the pot , so to speak.

I think you like to debate. I think the thrill of a good , heated debate really does something for you ... & that's all fine.

But , dude , you've gotta know that you're gonna be pressing people's buttons when you start threads like this. As I said , you're a smart guy ... I'm sure this doesn't escape your attention.

This thread is less about that pic & more about calling out the mods & satisfying your need for debate.

All that being said ... wow. The intensity of the responses have made for some really engaging drama for all of us reading. I don't want to say it's been fun ... but , well , who can't turn away from watching a good rumble?!

Excess · Nov 14, 2008

Man this thread was way tl;dr, but it was like a beautiful train wreck so I just couldn't look away. I'll refrain from adding to the mess just to say this;

lol @ people thinking that mods aren't people too.

slacker2114 · Nov 14, 2008

CrystalLight said:
Or one for the OP topic.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YwNVE37BGVE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YwNVE37BGVE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Amnesiac said:
FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that illustrates the problem with zero-tolerance society. On one hand, you have people who rely on unwritten and arbitrary codes of subjective morality to determine judgment and action...and on the other hand, you have left element progressives who codify prohibitive legislative codices to determine judgment and action.

Not reposting the whole thing, but damn, Amn....mad props for you.

kdakmmt · Nov 14, 2008

Im getting flashbacks to a lone individual guarding #tickling from the big bad evil #ticklesex ppl back in the day..... *ducks his head, waits for the allclear* that wouldnt be fisheye would it???😛

drew70 · Nov 14, 2008

TKLMAN said:
You're clearly not stupid , drew70 ... you seem like a pretty smart cookie. I think you were able to "get" the true intention & see the humor of the cartoon that BellaRisa posted.

Yes, of course I "got" it. If you'll look back on post #28 of this thread you'll see I acknowledged it. I wasn't questioning her intentions. Even in Bella's thread I said that I wasn't offended by the picture. That was never the issue with me. The issue was that it violated standing rules. Bella's moderator status compounded the issue. There seems to be an unwritten rule that moderators by the very nature of their position can do no wrong. And yet here it was happening before our very eyes.

But like MTP Jeff stated , I think you saw an opportunity in that to kinda "stick it to him" a little. I think that you're upset over how you've been treated by him in the past ... justifiably so or not ... & decided to start a thread to stir the pot , so to speak.

I'll not deny there's emnity between us. At this point that's the understatement of the year. And I'll admit I took some pleasure in exposing Jeff's duplicity. But that doesn't change the fact that this whole thing could have been easily avoided if Jeff had simply answered to the matter in Bella's thread or in PM.

I think you like to debate. I think the thrill of a good , heated debate really does something for you ... & that's all fine.

But , dude , you've gotta know that you're gonna be pressing people's buttons when you start threads like this. As I said , you're a smart guy ... I'm sure this doesn't escape your attention.

Yes, I knew it would be pressing people's buttons, but I felt it was an important enough issue to press for a straight answer. That's all I was looking for.

This thread is less about that pic & more about calling out the mods & satisfying your need for debate.

All that being said ... wow. The intensity of the responses have made for some really engaging drama for all of us reading. I don't want to say it's been fun ... but , well , who can't turn away from watching a good rumble?!

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I started out determined not to be drawn into yet another condescending diatribe concerning my behavior, my agenda, etc. Clearly I failed in this endeavor.

On the other hand I finally was able to say some things I've wanted to say for a long time, so some good came of it.

I've already been told by several that this is the best thread they've ever seen on this forum.
__________________

TklDuo-Ann · Nov 14, 2008

drew70 said:
And I'll admit I took some pleasure in exposing Jeff's duplicity. But that doesn't change the fact that this whole thing could have been easily avoided if Jeff had simply answered to the matter in Bella's thread or in PM.

I had planned to stay out of this. But, I can no longer do so. However, this will be my ONLY response.

First off. I agree that the pic should not have been allowed to remain. While it's cute and was posted innocently, it IS a violation. Had I been in Jeff's place, I'd likely have made the same quick decision on the fly to allow it. But, I'd likely have gone back to remove it (or more likely asked Bella to do so) later on after considering it further. Why? It depicts a character who is a minor in a BDSM theme...something most of us would consider to be sexual.

Should the rule remain as is? Should it be changed to allow for cartoon characters? That's a matter for debate. Personally, I'd probably err on the side of caution and leave it as is. But, that's coming from someone who was taken advantage of and abused as a minor. So, my view is scewed. The fact that cartoon characters are not "real" people changes that for some. For me, it does not. But, that's me.

That having been said, Drew, I think that this IS largely about your attitude. You enjoy a heated debate. There's nothing wrong with that. But, when you go around looking for things to bitch about, it makes YOU look bad. You say that this thread wouldn't have been started had Jeff responded to the original complaint. In fact, he DID respond. The fact that you obviously didn't like or agree with the response doesn't change that.

As for this thread being the best several have seen...? I'd consider it to be the worst, not the best. It effectively illustrates the bulldog mentality of your attitude. That isn't something I'd be bragging about. You have no idea how much you ruin other people's experience by acting the way you do. (And I admit that you aren't the only one who does it.)

Agree or disagree. That's your choice. But, quit the pissing contests! It's getting old! Grow up and get a fucking life!!!

Skipadeedoodah · Nov 14, 2008

LOL At Hari and Jo -- SO glad I'm not the only one who can see the humor in this 🙂

I. Love. TMF.

venray · Nov 14, 2008

I too was staying as far away from this as possible but must agree with Ann's assessment....

Drew...Something was posted that you had an issue with....Jeff responded as to why he let it go...you in your infinite lack of wisdom chose yet again not to accept the decision made by not just a moderator but the owner of the forum...

It is the mods decision to make not yours or mine....not always an easy call, but once the call is made to publicly post a thread including pm discussion just shows the blatant disregard you have always had for anyone's feelings but your own.

You have been trying to turn this forum into the old AMT style flamefests of the past ever since you became a member and if you dont like it here ,and dont like to try and get along , and insist on constantly harassing others you dislike for whatever reason, then just do yourself a favor and start your own forum somewhere else. The world and the internet will be a better place I am sure.

Everyone will be better off. I know you will reply in your usual style, but I'll not be revisiting this thread so pm me if you have anything of value to say.

tickledorange · Nov 14, 2008

Rule 34 lives on!

Mitchell · Nov 14, 2008

I've been trying to keep a very low profile on here for quite a while, but I want to chime in here.

Through my years at TMF, there have been times when I have gotten into some heated debates with people on the board, and been taken to task about certain things, particularly in regard to my stories. On a few occasions, I have complained, and, while on some occasions, the judgement was that the comment posted on the story actually was a flame, and was removed, there also have been some other occasions when I questioned something, was told a comment was not a flame, and had to say "Okay, whatever mod or admin told me this". and move on. Not too many months ago, I received a rather rude PM from someone asking me how long I was going to keep writing. This ticked me off to no end. I forwarded it on to a mod, questioned whether it was a flame, was informed that what goes on in pm is not always subject to the same guidelines as other places in the forum. I didnt like it, but had to accept it. I said "Okay", put the original person who sent me the rude pm on ignore, and moved on.

I view mod judgement calls as the same thing as an umpire or referree making a call in a baseball or basketball game. Sometimes, in those sports, it is clear whether a pitched ball is a ball or strike, or whether a foul committed is definitely a foul. Other times, it isnt as clear, and a judgement has to be made. I see the same correlation here.

More than likely, had this happened to me, I would have pmed or emailed Jeff, or whoever the mod was who made the judgement, asked him, or her, politely, why they judged it the way they did, and once I received their answer, like it or not, I would have said: "Okay, Jeff, or whichever mod made the decision, thats your call", and moved on. To me, being here is the thing, and I have refused throughout the years to allow any one person, or judgement by the mods, to make me angry enough to cross the line, and get banned. It isnt worth it. The ignore button is the way to deal with rude people, and a polite discussion, and acceptance, is the wisest way to deal with a call that a mod or admin makes that we dont like. What's the purpose in continuing it? More than likely, the call isnt going to be changed, and it's going to serve to make me upset, and the mod upset.

To me, the thread itself, and the length and discussion in this thread, is far, far, worse than the original thing. Jeff made a judgement call about allowing one post to stand. What's the big deal? Mimi said a long time ago: This is Jeff's forum, privately moderated, and run by him, he has the right to judge what posts are allowed, and what posts aren't.

So, that's it. I've said my piece, and will now go back into the more feasible lurk mode that I've been trying to stay in for a long time. I've come to learn that doing that, is far more feasible than involving myself in discussions such as this one.

Mitch

drew70 · Nov 14, 2008

TklDuo-Ann said:
That having been said, Drew, I think that this IS largely about your attitude. You enjoy a heated debate. There's nothing wrong with that. But, when you go around looking for things to bitch about, it makes YOU look bad. You say that this thread wouldn't have been started had Jeff responded to the original complaint. In fact, he DID respond. The fact that you obviously didn't like or agree with the response doesn't change that.

He didn't respond with any useful information, Ann. If he'd said, "It's not a violation because....." or "Yes, it's a violation but I'm letting it stand because...." then that would have been a response.

Instead, he responded by suggesting that since Bella is a moderator, anything she posts should not be questioned. He then invited me to discuss it with him in PM. When I did, he said, "I was lying when I said that. I have no interest in discussing this with you."

This left unanswered questions. Are these types of pictures okay to post now? Hell, at this point I didn't even know if Jeff considered Bella's cartoon a violation which he chose to let slide, or whether he would take her stance and insist the girl was adult in the picture.

He didn't give any kind of <em>thoughtful</em> response until others began calling for one, which didn't happen and wouldn't have happened until this thread was started. Sorry if that offends you Ann, but I'm not the one you need to be talking to.

Venray said:
Drew...Something was posted that you had an issue with....Jeff responded as to why he let it go...you in your infinite lack of wisdom chose yet again not to accept the decision made by not just a moderator but the owner of the forum...

Read above, pal. Better yet, read the threads in question.

Venray said:
It is the mods decision to make not yours or mine....not always an easy call, but once the call is made to publicly post a thread including pm discussion just shows the blatant disregard you have always had for anyone's feelings but your own.

If you'll look back Ray, you'll see than I never challenged his decision to let the picture stay. I know he's the forum owner, and I've never questioned his authority. Merely his attitude, behavior and temperment. All I asked for was a confirmation of the rules and to whom they apply. It was a question not only asked by me but echoed by others as well, so what you're saying here is completely without substance or merit.

You have been trying to turn this forum into the old AMT style flamefests of the past ever since you became a member and if you dont like it here ,and dont like to try and get along , and insist on constantly harassing others you dislike for whatever reason, then just do yourself a favor and start your own forum somewhere else. The world and the internet will be a better place I am sure.

That's very flattering Ray, but I think you overstate my impact on the world and the Internet. And who is harrassing who here? You come in just to take your shot and then leave?

And since you brought it up, AMT was bar none, hands down, THE best tickling forum on the Internet...EVER. And Bob Hare, God rest his soul, was the King of forum administration.

Everyone will be better off. I know you will reply in your usual style, but I'll not be revisiting this thread so pm me if you have anything of value to say.

If you wanted a PM you should have approached me in PM. Make sense? You'll either read this response or you won't. Life goes on.
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