Asking permission... (all artists please read)

[Celtic_Emperor]

This isn't fair, you're just turning this on all me and thats not the way I feel at all.

I don't feel the greater whole of the community is rebellious or malicious. I was talking about individual circumstances in retrospect. Quite different from saying its what people are here, or that its what Big Norm is.

I know what is crossing a line and what is not, and I know what people do and what they do not do in and out of maliciousness. I'm not accusing anyone here of any foul play. Its just a possibility, especially, if for example, he didn't get this picture from my group but got it from some other site I don't even know about and the editting or whatever was already done.

I just now mentioned it was probably a re-size though, you seem to have ignored that and then went on about what being malicious is, when I know what it is.

And now you're trying to tell me I'm not being generous? I've been generous just by sharing the work. Trying to make me a heel or bad guy because I won't kiss his ass now or humble myself isn't right.

This is getting off topic and is irrelevant at this point.

This is about credit not being given. That needs to change. Not just for me, for everyone whose work is being passed around like currency and the sentiments of the artist being lost in transition.

The solution is very simple. By making efforts to learn more about the artists instead of just joining their sites, and taking their stuff and then forgetting where you got it, it would be better to actually look at their group and related groups, and then their identity will be aparent.

Theres only one me, and theres only one you. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, and it shouldn't be too hard to ask permission or give credit when you know who they are. How hard is it to write and send a modest e-mail? If people can chit chat with no problem, people can do this.

It would make the process more pleasant and no one would complain about anything.

 

[MTJpub]

Vladislav,


I agree that seeking permission and giving due credit is the courteous, respectful and lawful thing to do. However if you were to hold your own fan art to the same principles, should you not contact the lawful copyright holders of such trademarked characters and ask their permission to use their characters in your fan art?

For the record I don’t have anything against fan art or fan fiction. In fact I enjoy it when it is done well. It also seems that the industry at large does not seem to be bothered by it unless it is used for profit or obscene material. However it seems a bit hypocritical to demand permission from posters of your fan art when it is highly unlikely that you have requested permission to use such trademarked characters yourself. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Kalamos]

This isn't fair, you're just turning this on all me and thats not the way I feel at all.

I don't feel the greater whole of the community is rebellious or malicious. I was talking about individual circumstances in retrospect. Quite different from saying its what people are here, or that its what Big Norm is.

I know what is crossing a line and what is not, and I know what people do and what they do not do in and out of maliciousness. I'm not accusing anyone here of any foul play. Its just a possibility, especially, if for example, he didn't get this picture from my group but got it from some other site I don't even know about and the editting or whatever was already done.

I just now mentioned it was probably a re-size though, you seem to have ignored that and then went on about what being malicious is, when I know what it is.

And now you're trying to tell me I'm not being generous? I've been generous just by sharing the work. Trying to make me a heel or bad guy because I won't kiss his ass now or humble myself isn't right.

This is getting off topic and is irrelevant at this point.

This is about credit not being given. That needs to change. Not just for me, for everyone whose work is being passed around like currency and the sentiments of the artist being lost in transition.

The solution is very simple. By making efforts to learn more about the artists instead of just joining their sites, and taking their stuff and then forgetting where you got it, it would be better to actually look at their group and related groups, and then their identity will be aparent.

Theres only one me, and theres only one you. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, and it shouldn't be too hard to ask permission or give credit when you know who they are. How hard is it to write and send a modest e-mail? If people can chit chat with no problem, people can do this.

It would make the process more pleasant and no one would complain about anything.

But it IS all about you. You told Big Norm he posted your pic without permission nor credit. He said he'd hit a snag. And he said he offended YOU.

So, who's this all about? Me?

You are not generous because you post your pictures: people get used to it rather quickly. You become generous when you can cope with whatever fame your pics beget.

Saying you "won't kiss his ass" is petty [even if taken out from its context] and gross too...

There are several way to skin an Irish - and there are several ways to keep track of your pictures - and of those who share them.

Personally, I've found my art on a couple of groups. Without my name under the pic.
Did I send outraged mails requiring the wrongdoers to remove the offending pics?
Nah, I simply took track of whom placed what and where, and simply stopped sending or making pictures I knew those persons would like.

Sometimes I don't just understand you: on one hand you behave as if you wielded some unearthly power, or harboured some ground shattering secret.

Then, you are so thin skinned as to *require* people to scribble your name under the pics they post.
What next? Remembering your name in their prayers?

You want to make an example? Stop drawing.
Just check when I last posted a pic, and how often *I* post tk art online.

I can assure you I am a bit more prolific than that.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Sorry, but no dice, with respect, sir.

This is not about copyrights as I am not CLAIMING the characters in my pictures as mine, when they pictures are fanart. So theres nothing hypocritical about it.

All I've been talking about is credit. Credit as in acknowledging the artist as the creator of the picture, not necessarily the charactere therein.

I am not subjecting this issue to a copyright probe, nor am I speaking against an absent evil in copyright enfringement.

So I don't know what you are trying to get at. As the creator of the picture, I have authority over it. I can say what is done with it, where it goes, and so on. Anyone that draws anything here within the limitations of the law, and its not for profit can do so.

However, this same ability is not carried on over to fans or members who want to share our work for us. Its not their place to do so. Understand what I mean? Sure, its got its benefits, but its not always appropriate. Its like doing our advertizement for us, and if its not done well, or with credit, explaination, etc, then what more is it than a person taking random pictures so they can feel they've done their part?

Theres no "part" for them in other people's work unless they have been given the ok. As I suggested, perhaps he should become an artist or writer, or find non-claimed material to distribute and use. People that pander our work about with no thought for how we might feel about it are not doing us the service they may somehow think they are. And it leads to so many issues, such as the material ending up in the wrong places, it being manipulated because of where it is present (ie--porn sites etc.). The list goes on and on, and rest assured I've dealt with some pretty sneaky, pretty caniving individuals who were very stubborn and didn't want to yield when they were clearly in the wrong. I managed to close one group down, and they deserved it. What they were doing was a bastardization of the work they held there.

Getting back to this topic however, its not asking much then for credit to be given to the person who drew any said pictures, if possible. And when it is not possible, it is possible that someone else will know and that someone else can correct the person for their knowledge, so that it won't happen again.

If we help eachother out and get out of this state of complacency over this issue, we can change the posture and overall outlook on re-distribution for the better.

In a near perfect community it would be like this:

Big Norm has an update.

It features my art.

Big Norm notes which pictures are mine, etc.

Its really that simple. This time he can get away with it on ignorance and simply not knowing. Most people can. If anything, this thread served as a reminder of what should be happening. Its not hypocritcal to ask or be given credit for something you drew, fanart or not. Its unique unto you, you've made it your own, and you deserve to be acknowledged for it.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Kalamos, what makes you think I haven't done exactly as you have? You act as if I'm this engraged scoundral that is just waiting for someone to fuck up so I can bring the hammer down on them.

Its not like that at all. I keep tabs and remain quiet just like you do. Your methods, in reality, are no different than mine. Don't mistake my words for my practices. I realize in the heat of the moment, its possible to do that or that something can go awry and might be easier to accept as a possibility than something else.

Its very possible that I feel like you do on the matter, and I do. I'm not this monster, though I've dealt with monsters.

Again, this boils down to credit. So many pictures have gone by without me saying anything, I let these innocent mistakes go.

But here, here Kalamos is a chance to stop this. I cannot undo what has been done, and I have no desire to. But I can propose that people start considering what they do before they do it. You agree with me, so theres no reason to provide me with a backlash.

Since we are in agreement, generally speaking, this is unnecessary. Instead of talking about would have and have dones, lets talk about what CAN be done NOW. That alone is not unreasonable, outlandish, or absurd.

God forbid people get credit for their work.

 

[MTJpub]

Perhaps you missed the following from my above post…

Fan-art of copyrighted characters has no legal protection. If you draw Simba or Nala or Kovu, you are creating a derivative work-- something that U.S. law explicitly defines as being owned by the creator of the original work. Without Disney's permission, all fan-art and fan-fiction using their characters is in fact illegal.

However if you want something more official try the following link…
http://www.copyright.gov/

You can’t pick and choose what part of a law that you decide needs to be enforced. So the fact is that you ARE being hypocritical when you lash out at others for not seeking permission or giving credit when you don’t do it yourself.

In addition to asking for permission from the artist’s who's work that your fan art is based on you should also credit his name and his copyright of the character on the actual fan art. After all you would expect no less.

Let me once again point out that I have no problem with fan art and fan fiction. I think it actually helps support the work on which it is based. Lucas Arts found that out the hard way from the public relations backlash when they decided to get tough with fans during the early days of the internet.

However be honest with yourself. What you do when you illegally create fan art without permission or giving the original artist credit is no better than what you are accusing Big Norm of doing.

 

[Kalamos]

Kalamos, what makes you think I haven't done exactly as you have? You act as if I'm this engraged scoundral that is just waiting for someone to fuck up so I can bring the hammer down on them.

Its not like that at all. I keep tabs and remain quiet just like you do. Your methods, in reality, are no different than mine. Don't mistake my words for my practices. I realize in the heat of the moment, its possible to do that or that something can go awry and might be easier to accept as a possibility than something else.

Its very possible that I feel like you do on the matter, and I do. I'm not this monster, though I've dealt with monsters.

Again, this boils down to credit. So many pictures have gone by without me saying anything, I let these innocent mistakes go.

But here, here Kalamos is a chance to stop this. I cannot undo what has been done, and I have no desire to. But I can propose that people start considering what they do before they do it. You agree with me, so theres no reason to provide me with a backlash.

Since we are in agreement, generally speaking, this is unnecessary. Instead of talking about would have and have dones, lets talk about what CAN be done NOW. That alone is not unreasonable, outlandish, or absurd.

God forbid people get credit for their work.

Well, you act like you were, enraged. Sometimes I think you revel in attention, whatever be it, whereever you can get it.

Come on... "waiting for someone to fuck up"? I'd like to see my english teacher's face... 😉

You stated quite clearly your plans. Execute them and let's see how they turn out.

If your actions will get me any benefit, I'll give you due credit.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

MTJ-

Theres nothing I can do about that. The characters I draw are based on people I would never be able to get in direct contact with.

I have to admit to your being right only because of a technicality. If it was possible to call up or write Ken Akamatsu and ask if I can draw Naru Narusegawa, I would, but I can't. So its not fair for you to impose that on me. Getting in contact with such people is near impossible. Its not like writing a letter to Stan Lee or his staff, and we know what he would say. The japanese people don't mind the fanart, in fact, they encourage it.

So what I can say in my defensive is that I'm doing a service to the animes from which I draw.

But is the fan or contributor doing a service to me when they upload my pictures?

There you go there then.

Kalamos- If I wanted the attention I'd create a topic or talk about something that interests me. The fact I naturally get attention is not my problem its in how people react to me.

As for the plans, I think you already know its not going to work longterm. You know as well as I do the best I can hope for is a short-term solution. Thats why I suggested perhaps this become a rule, at least until people get into the motions of doing what is only fair.

Lastly, I don't want nor need your credit. I'm not doing this to prove anything especially to you, I'm doing it so things might change. It was I who got the TMF to create a "Decorum of Constructive Criticism" sticky, for the art sections, and I didn't even ask for it. But because of me and some others, the people of the TMF now have a more fleshed out and explained example of what is constructive and what is not.

In the same way, perhaps eventually such a sticky will exist here or on the TMF or both. Theres so many ways this can happen, and I look forward to it. Anyone wishing a failure is twisted somehow and is basically disagreeing that artists should have credit given to them at all times. And I honestly don't know why people would think that. If you aren't for the idea then you're against it, for whatever reason, and that doesn't help anything.

In Big Norm's case, I hope he learned a lesson in that maybe next time he should put more thought into what he does before he does it. Knowing what he knows now, perhaps he will go the extra mile and bother to find out who the pictures belong to or ask around. Whether we know who or not is beside the point, its just proper. I know its an extra hassle, but its worth it, totally worth it, and I know the artists would really appriciate it.

EDIT:

Its really as simple as starting the thread with:

"Heres some pictures from the great Cheshire Cat!"

and then make the thread all about him, or divide the posts and the artists.

Now I know what you're thinking "people are already doing this!"

Yes, thats true, but not enough people. The number of people giving some form of credit are outnumbered by people in Big Norm's situation. Vastly outnumbered.

The more people that aware of the art and who drew it, the more ignorance and setting credit where it belongs, we can do.

 

[nessonite1]

Hope no one expected me to read all that 😛
Anyway...short and sweet. Normie, I never minded if anyone collects, distributes, gives away, or otherwise shares my work if they want to. I put it out there for ya'll and it's yours to post freely. I only ask that you not alter it in any way without asking me first and certainly that you don't remove my signature. Thanks!
Oh yeah, if you post my stuff someplace or see it somewhere lemme know! I like to know when Im getting more exposure. 😀

 

[MTJpub]

Hope no one expected me to read all that 😛
Anyway...short and sweet. Normie, I never minded if anyone collects, distributes, gives away, or otherwise shares my work if they want to. I put it out there for ya'll and it's yours to post freely. I only ask that you not alter it in any way without asking me first and certainly that you don't remove my signature. Thanks!
Oh yeah, if you post my stuff someplace or see it somewhere lemme know! I like to know when Im getting more exposure. 😀

I for one expected you to read the entire thread twice! There will be a test on Monday 😀

 

[Kalamos]

Let me give you a glimpse into the matter; a sitrep, as DJ might say. 😉

DJ wants credit for his pictures, MTJ pointed out it is nonsense, since DJ draws fanart, and you can't invoke copyright for derivative art.

DJ replied it was just good manners, and I told him to place a bolder sig on his pics.

DJ then stated he had a plan, I prompted him to execute it, but he replied it is a short term plan, and now here we are, stranded in search for a good, long term plan.

Oh, and he said he is blond, handsome, and slim.
Haven't you got some jokes about blondes to tell?

Mmmm... Personally... I find blondes sexy... 😉

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I didn't expect you would Ness, so no.

I don't feel any different than you do. I'd be just as loose with my art if at least some heads up was given or some credit was mentioned. Some people do that, but not hardly enough.

We obviously have different value setting for the art itself. I can understand how someone in your position whose still pretty green isn't aware of the things that happen when you allow your art to be passed around everywhere.

Consider yourself fortunate that bad things haven't happened to you. I'm not talking small peanut stuff, I'm talking editting, manipulating etc. I'm sure no artist wants that, and anyone claiming they don't care even after that is being too modest.

You're innoncent Ness as is your mentality on the issue. Stay as sweet as you are and hope you are never faced with the complications of people wanting a piece of you when you get better and better. 🙂

 

[Kalamos]

I didn't expect you would Ness, so no.

I don't feel any different than you do. I'd be just as loose with my art if at least some heads up was given or some credit was mentioned. Some people do that, but not hardly enough.

We obviously have different value setting for the art itself. I can understand how someone in your position whose still pretty green isn't aware of the things that happen when you allow your art to be passed around everywhere.

Consider yourself fortunate that bad things haven't happened to you. I'm not talking small peanut stuff, I'm talking editting, manipulating etc. I'm sure no artist wants that, and anyone claiming they don't care even after that is being too modest.

You're innoncent Ness as is your mentality on the issue. Stay as sweet as you are and hope you are never faced with the complications of people wanting a piece of you when you get better and better. 🙂

I think I'll just sit back and enjoy the rest of this thread... 😉

...

For a while.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Kalamos, I didn't say I was blonde, and yes I do know some blonde jokes. If you are implying I'm dumb because thats a stereotype placed upon blonde women, then thats silly, because I'm not dumb. That should be very obvious in the way that I talk.

Also, I'm a brunette. 😛

And the plan is still valid. I'm just being realistic, and since I know you look down on it either way, whats the point in putting too much hype into something where I can guess it's life-expectancy?

You'll get what you want, and you know it- nothing. Things will stay the same and this will be just another bad topic. And there the people will go, back into complacency and acceptance of how things are when they could be better.

Well again, theres nothing wrong with wanting credit. You don't seem to disagree, and really, theres nothing I can do about it either. Its about people being good enough to do it on their own.

People taking the initiative to do the right thing is all we can hope for. We cannot force it, but we can encourage it, and thats all I've been doing this entire time.

 

[nessonite1]

I'm not nieve (though I cant spell the damn word 😛 ). I know lots of people do rotten things but I also know I've got to pick my battles. If I'm going to put my stuff out there I know there is a good chance that people will abuse them, alter them, etc. but it's either take that chance or not do anything and I've chosen to do it anyway.

DJ wants credit for his pictures, MTJ pointed out it is nonsense, since DJ draws fanart, and you can't invoke copyright for derivative art.

K...Im not sure 100% but I am pretty sure you can have copyright on fanart. I'd have to look up the parody laws but frankly Im not than ambitious. I've seen something on the subject at www.cafepress.com so if you wanna look it up...

Anyway, I too hope nothing really bad haoppens as a result of me freely giving permission to distribute my stuff but I really cant think of anything truly horrific that could happen. If someone takes something I make and alters it, claims it as there own, sure that would suck and I'd probably give them a verbal tongue lashing but it's really not the most tragic thing that could occur in my life so I'm not stressing it.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Good for you. Really, good for you. Art is one of the few sanctuaries I have these days, so I would be more cautious of protecting my invested time into this hobby, while it remains a hobby.

 

[nessonite1]

I see where you're coming from, Vlad. By nature I am a photographer and I'd feel a lot more slighted if someone screwed with my photography than if they screwed with my art.

 

[BigNorm]

holy cow, 42 replies in 24 hours... is that some kind of record?

um... i can't really read all the posts now since it's 3 a.m. (aka bedtime)

i'm sorry for all the trouble, dracula. i'm not saying to change your signature, just post a sample of it, or describe it. it's true that people can go to yahoo sites to get all this stuff, but i've noticed after just 3 posts of pics, alotta people haven't seen some of these pics, and i wanted to save people the trouble from joining over 50 yahoo groups to get these, so they just gotta come here to get them, which i figure is a big favour.
i would understand if some artists work are so distinguished, theres no mistaking them, i.e. Chesire Cat, Gripped Chimp, Scamwich, etc.

ok, tomorrow morning i'll read all 42 posts to get everthing. but thanks for the understanding of the situation.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I really don't blame you in your eagerness. I know that if I came upon something worthwhile I'd want to share it too. But its not always that simple. Not in a day and age like this, especially when you're talking the internet.

Caution, the 42 posts you refer to may not make things any easier for you. You're being nice to me now, but just wait until you read that stuff. You might think I'm really mean. And I apologize in advance if you come to feel that I was too rough on you, come tomorrow when you read them.

But I'm just being honest, and I hope you will take my advice. Its not anything that will hurt you, and it will be good will and effort in action on your part. And I'm sure the others will appriciate it as well.

As for my signature, Its just DJ (it may not look like a D or J to some people though, but it is). I'm not sure what else you want from me. All of my pictures have my initials somewhere on them, usually at the bottom so that it doesn't distract from the picture. I also date my pictures, so I'll remember when I drew the piece. Sometimes I write my initials out myself or I use fonts if the picture was fiven color treatment.

Go to my group or my forum here and you'll see what I mean.

If it makes it any easier for you to recognize it, people tend to tell me I do a really good job on drawing the feet and faces. So those features may stand out to you, I don't know, especially when I don't know how much of my work you may have seen.

If you need further assistance on something, I'd be glad to help. Cheshire and myself are pretty good at identifying the works of others too. Though he's probably better at it since he's been around a bit longer than I have.

 

[tukano_2]

...
Normie, I never minded if anyone collects, distributes, gives away, or otherwise shares my work if they want to. I put it out there for ya'll and it's yours to post freely. I only ask that you not alter it in any way without asking me first and certainly that you don't remove my signature. Thanks!
Oh yeah, if you post my stuff someplace or see it somewhere lemme know! I like to know when Im getting more exposure. 😀

...

Anyway, I too hope nothing really bad haoppens as a result of me freely giving permission to distribute my stuff but I really cant think of anything truly horrific that could happen. If someone takes something I make and alters it, claims it as there own, sure that would suck and I'd probably give them a verbal tongue lashing but it's really not the most tragic thing that could occur in my life so I'm not stressing it.
...

...
As far as I'm concerned...

...feel free to post my original stories and or foot tickling toons anywhere you you want.
...

Exactly how I feel about the matter 🙂 I don't even mind if people alter my drawings without asking permissions, even if it would be nice from them to keep my signature.

I have a whole bunch of F/F drawings of mine modified by a Russian guy who replaces the F ticklee face with a male face (with beard and all) and deleted the breasts. He also added hair on the chest and arms! 🙂 I just found that funny and considered that as a act of admiration, so I also added them to my site.

Plus there are a lot of people who colored my drawings, doing a damn good job by the way, increasing the worth of my humble work.

I just complained when some Brazilian guy edited some pix of mine, putting heavy porn content in them: not that I have something against heavy porn content, I recently did something like that myself, but if I want so "strong stuff" in my drawings, I prefere to do it myself, or at least he should have asked what I thought about that in advance.

I just think, if someone wants his work not to be freely posted without preventive permission, they should be respected, but I hope that won't turn in some kind of official rule: I think it could only be detrimental for people's enjoyment of this Forum.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

People won't enjoy the art any less just because permission was sought. I don't know of anyone that would deny someone the priveledge (as it is a priveledge and not a right) of uploading their work. And if anyone would complain about the ammount of art being reduced because of that, well then that just goes to show you how many people assume the right to handle our work, whether thats fanart or whatever, as again, this is not a copyright issue but an issue of fairness. If people don't feel they should in all fairness and respect ask us first, then what does that say about them and their respect for us?

In fact, its more wholesome all around when the art has been given the right to be where it is and everything is ok and there are no misgivings of any kind.

You are an obvious extreme of the "do whatever you want column", whereas I am an extreme of "you can share the work with permission but thats all you can do." We both have plenty of people on both our sides, so neither one has any leverage, unless you take the global art community into consideration. In that sense, more people are protective of their work. And while I realize this is just the fetish community that this type of artwork is probably being shared, I don't feel the sense of wanting to be given credit for something you drew is any less important.

This isn't about denying anyone anything, since in the end the ammount of art being shared is being shared by at least the artists themselves, so you can always be assured that you'll see the material one way or another, and who better to present it and explain it if need be than the artist themself?

In the grander scheme of things its a fact that when you ask permission or at least make artists aware of what you are doing with their art, that it helps build a trust between you and them, and as a result, contributions are more likely to increase than decrease. I'm not speaking only for myself when I say that I'd definitely be more light-hearted about this as some of you are being if I felt that I was being understood and my wishes were respected, beforehand.

In actuality, I'm not imposing some unreasonable desire or wish. Really now, whats wrong with giving the artist a little heads up, or a note? I'm not saying this has to be done every single time for every single picture, but if you are going to continue to contribute that artist's work its only fair to at least bring it to their attention. Why wouldn't you? Why shouldn't you? Theres no honest answer to that.

People should show some constraint in where they upload the art too, as certainly the artist may have a preferance of where they would want their art to be. For example, would it be right for anyone to assume that I'd want my art here, assuming that I wasn't already here? You might say "well, the art is of a similar theme, so why not?". Well, in your mind it may be, in this example, but still, how do you know I would care for my art to be here and who are you to assume I both feel as you do about it and am ok with it? Consider the fact you have not told me or that you've told me after the fact, or that I've found out by a third party, or by a fate of chance I stumbled upon it happening myself? How am I supposed to feel exactly?

That doesn't help build trust and friendship, no sir. It creates doubt, suspicion, and contempt. First off, in that example, you're doing it behind my back, second, you didn't give a damn how I might feel, and third, you're not doing anything about it to make the situation better now that you are aware that I'm aware. It shows me you care about everyone but the artist, as you are more willing to serve them and want them to be happy so that you can feel good, than to include the artist in that happiness by giving them props and credit for the work they have made available to you and everyone else.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Its to my benefit that I can say all of this and never really have to deal with it, as fortunately I'm the one primarly contributing my work, and cases like Big Norm are rare.

That still doesn't change anything about this issue however or how I feel for it. When a contributor has material they cannot honestly identify (like in Big Norm's case), I'm sure theres someone who can identify it. In this case, I did. And I would much rather see it identified and be accredited to someone than for it to be ambiguous. Not only is it identified and accredited this way, but the contributor now has more knowledge about an artist they know very little to nothing about.

Its really as simple as saying, "oh, thats Zero's artwork, here's his link". If someone does that than it totally makes up for what the contributor failed to do, as the art has been accredited and linkage has been provided. In this example, something was wrong and now it is right, as elementary as having to say this is. I just don't like it when no one does anything. I'm sure most of us that look at the art on this forum can identify the artist or knows someone who can.

You guys saw Slaanesh's work and you said nothing (the ones that were not identified), I'm the only one that took the initiative. Could I have counted on one of you or someone to accredit that one picture of mine? I'm not so sure.

Whats even worse is people assuming everyone else knows who the artist is already. Big Norm himself said he was posting the stuff for new people to see it. That, in my opinion, gives us an even greater responsibility in doing this if the contributor, for whatever reason, fails to do so. They may not know better, but we do.

Have a few or even several threads slipped past me? Sure, but I'm sure that if I was aware of them or I was capable of identifying the artist(s) I would have. In the case of known artists I've passed the chance up of identifying, theres no excuse for that. Although I'm not going to be hard on myself since I feel I'm clearly more empathetic here.

 

[ShadowTklr]

Exercise

Here is an interesting exercise that I thought up to query the group here about permission and artwork. Dont' read anything into it. I'm just posting a question to see if it might help.

A sidewalk artist in NYC kneels down in the middle of a busy sidewalk, traversed by thousands of passersby, and draws elaborate originals with colored chalk right on the cement, for everyone to see.

One such passerby takes a picture of the sidewalk drawing, and runs across the street to show it to a group of her friends. The sidewalk artist, infuriated by the perceived violation, runs up to the woman and gives her a 20 minute lecture about her responsibility of asking permission before taking pictures.

While he is castigating her, several tourists, admiring the beautiful sidewalk drawing also take pictures with the intention of showing these pictures to their friends and family. Soon, the frustrated artist is running frantically from person to person in an effort to stop the picture-taking of his publicly displayed artwork.

Questions:
Are the picture-takers violating the rights of the artist by taking pictures of the artwork?
Is the artist right for feeling violated?
Can a parallel be drawn between the sidewalk artist and the internet artist? If so, how? If not, Why?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

First, because its public, he's allowing this to happen. So for him to be infuriated over something he himself is pertepuating is very contradictive of him even sharing it. Whats the point in sharing it if he wants no one to take pictures of it to show others?

Second, this artist, is presumably an unknown or obscure artist who may not be identified. People walking on street corners are not going to care.

The answers to your questions then:

1.) No. Because he's openly allowing it and putting it where everyone can see it. He thoughts say one thing, and his actions another.

2.) The artist has every right to feel however he wants both about the situation and how his work is percieved and understood by others. This is only natural, is is their curiousity.

3.) Yes and no.

Yes because we are uploading our work to the internet so that others can see it. If there is any parallel between your example artist, and say me, its that we both share artwork.

No because while the concept is the same, the methods of dealing with the artist's work have been made different. The artist in your example is putting this all on himself. If he doesn't want people taking snap-shots of his work he shouldn't have drawn them on a public street. Theres also laws he might have broken in the process or he may have caused a disturbance of some kind, for which he may be cited for.

The reason it is not the same is because this thread is about asking permission from known artists if its ok to pass their work around. As I said several times, I don't know of one artist who would not allow this. I do know of several however that feel as I do in that if you are going to share this work, its only right to accredit, if possible, and give us a e-mail or some heads up if possible.

According to Big Norm, it wasn't possible last time. Something I find hard to believe give that he handled the same artist's work multiple times and still couldn't recognize it, but whatever, I believe him.

My stance on the issue throughout this thread has been that IF you are going to share the artwork, just give some credit and a link.

The people on the street corner in your story are just going to take a picture and keep walking. The people on an internet site, namely this one, are not like that. They stick around and await more updates. The people on that street corner move, perhaps to never see the artist again.

In the greater scheme of your example story, the artist may never resurface or be anything more than a passer-byer, but the artists here have the potential to develop presense in a unique way, and people recognize that presense. People know who I am, and people know who Kalamos and Nessonite are. Does everyone know who we are? No, of course not. But in the greater scheme of reality, and not your story, its entirely possible, feasible, and likely that in any given situation giving the artist the credit is given many opportunities.

The only fair parallel then between this reality and your story is that artist is sharing the work. But its how the people react and what options they have to work with in the moment that are different. Time practically stands still here, whereas on that busy street corner, so many things happen too quickly, and what happens happens, and its forgivable and ok. The artist there could not honestly expect people to stop, remember who he is, and then give him credit later.

All of these things are possible here however, in a small, condensed community.

Also, we're talking about third parties sharing our work. That different from the artist doing it. Whatever the artist does is on them, but what a contributor does is a potential liability to the artist.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Thats what this can also boil down to- liability.

A contributor is in no position to take make these decisions of where the art goes and whats allowed. Thats a call I feel only the artist has a right to make. Anything that is contrary to what the artist would want is a potential liability to them. Seeing as how they cannot control another person, this person is free to do whatever they want. But whatever that is may not be what the artist wants. And its in this way that disservices can be done.

This is another reason I feel asking permission is necessary, aside from it being the courtious thing to do.