Is World War III Approaching

[ShiningIce]

Since Sep 11 and the escalating violance between Israel and the Palestinians, I find myself asking just how far away we are from another war the consumes the entire globe again?? and can we hold out on nuclear weapons?? and if so for how long???

 

[Dave2112]

Well, consider the fact that Tony Blair has already said the UK is willing to use a nuclear strike IF Iraq unleashes chem/bio weapons. Consider the fact that Bush's nuclear "contingency" plan was leaked...now here's a guy who will use them if ever there was one...

Things are spiraling out of control. If we don't find a way to stop letting every religious faction express thier "freewill" and find a way to rid this planet of this crap once and for all...

...nothing short of Divine Intervention is going to save us.

 

[qjakal]

Actually...

From a strictly military standpoint, Iraq having a nuclear bomb isn't a tremendous threat to the USA...sounds silly , hmm? But any weapon is only as good as its delivery system, and theirs SUCK...they couldn't get a plane out of their airspace if we don't let them, and they don't have any other accurate means of moving a nuclear payload. The chemical/bio weaponry they are developing, on the other hand, needs no sophisticated delivery systems, and is extremely mobile. Our concern regarding that threat is warranted and justified. A "martyr" equipped with destructive chemical agents is more likely a threat than a warhead at this point in time. "Nuking" a nearby country, or having an undeliverable load fall short is inviting suicide for the launch site country, although obviously loss of life isn't one of the major concerns of many nations involved in this scenario....fallout from a blast of a dirty bomb can spread incredibly...the radius of it is virually unlimited and unmeasurable due to the new techniology incorporated into this generation of bombs. Is WW3 inevitable? No, but if we don't take proactive steps we may bring it upon ourselves. At this point in time we have the abilty (militarily) to dismantle nearly any combination of nations arsenal if we choose to turn our full attention towards it as our primary objective. The defense industry in the USA is gearing up once more, contracts have been issued and new technological advances are rolling off the whiteboards into production. Existing technology is being adapted to new, more extreme uses to enable our military to maintain an edge in every phase of battle.

The window of opportunity is open, and will probably remain that way for at least another decade or so, but we must muster the national unity and willpower to implement a coherent plan that will allow the world to continue spinning even as madmen and rogue nations abound...without losing our moral compass and becoming the very Nation we feared Russia was, not so long ago....

Q

 

[Knightshade]

Nah...

Maybe I'm a little desensetized to war, growing up in the 80's, and being in jr.high during desert storm but this just doesn't bother me as much as it does some people.

 

[TicklishPhoebe]

The violence in the Middle East is a really personal issue for me, as I have friends in Israel.

The threats of using nuclear weapons really disturb me. There's just no call for that. We saw what they can do in WWII, and we've managed to not use them since then.. even countries that we consider 'unstable' have refrained from nuking anyone (If Pakistan and India can have a very heated, um, conflict and manage to not use nukes, then anyone can).

When supposedly civilized Western countries start talking about flipping nukes at one another, that makes me very nervous indeed, but is panic really going to help?

Maybe I'm just a fatalist, but even if this is the start of WWIII, I'm just going to go on with my life and hope for the best. I think that's all any of us can do.

 

[SmileyTkls]

Maybe I'm just a fatalist, but even if this is the start of WWIII, I'm just going to go on with my life and hope for the best. I think that's all any of us can do.

I don't see that as fatalism, i.e. hopelessness and no choices in the matter, but as optimism, living your life as best you can, with good friends and zest for life, no matter how long it lasts. No one is guaranteed a long time, so do with what you have, as long as you have it. Esp. giving and receiving affection and tickles. 😀

Smiley,
feeling a bit philosophical

 

[Nebula45]

Indeed

I agree with Qjakal, but, unfortunatly, sometimes the UN restricts the military when it needs to allow more leeway. maybe it's my chronic right-wingedness (i'm inventing vocabulary, i think), but i think that governing of the military should be left to military people, that's why we train them at West Point, Annapolis and Boulder, CO. we could have won 'Nam, in my opinion, if they had left power in Westmoreland's hands instead of ::castrating:: his command cuz of the opinion back home.

And i also, this talk about nukes is just media hype. they are just trying to get people running around, worrying about nuclear holocaust so that you toon into their programs. the event of the US firing a nuke is highly unlikely, but in, as in life, you can't rule ANYTHING out.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[mabus]

SHUT UP!!!!!

I mean that to any arab on TV talking about the mideast conflict. (Unless they're the out of the ordinary ones showing respect...) I just got finished watching this muslim guy talking to Bill O'Reilly, basically telling O'Reilly that. It went something along the lines of "you will listen to me, you will not interrupt me, etc. etc." SHUT UP!!! Lately, everytime one is on, or anytime one is in the presence of one, we better shut up so they can rant and rave about the evil Jews and evil Isreal. We will listen to their hatred, and agree with them, or we can just shut up, by golly!!!

I also notice a change taking place in America, and the opposite in Europe. France, and many other European countries are experiencing a growing rash of anti-semitism. Meanwhile, support in America is drastically growing TOWARD Isreal. While before, many in the U.S.A. didn't care, and some even sided with the Palestinians. Now, more and more are agreeing with Isreal, and think they should take a firmer stand. This shouldn't be hard to believe.

We were attacked by these same religious fanatics. They are attacked daily. The attacks are aimed at teenagers and the young, ie. the future of Israel. Arafat was offered peace time and time and time again, but he wants peace BUT wants to continue killing Jews with suicide bombers too! Israel defends itself and is called brutal. GOOD! They should be brutal to terrorists! I used to somewhat side with the Palestinians, but now must, on good conscienceness side with Israel. The Jews don't send in suicide bombers to kill Palestinians. They certainly don't lie as much as the muslims.

Muslim papers tell stories of how the Sept 11 attacks were caused by a Jewish conspiracy, how the pilots were Jews, how all the Jews stayed home from work that day, all of which are laughable lies. They speak of how the Jews are cannibals, and other sick nonsense. Meanwhile, many of the Palestinians who die actually die by their own brethern's hands! If they help Jews, or are simply suspected of helping the Jews, they are murdered and their dead bodies dragged through the streets, or hung on lamp posts. They lie to their own people, and ABOUT their own people. When Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, Bin Laden's second in command was captured in Egypt for the murder of President sadat, he was tortured, and described while ranting from his cell. When several officials were asked if this were true, they of course said "No, no, they tried to say that, but this is not true..." Of course he was tortured, he described what they did, we know they did, so why lie!?

Have you ever known an agressive nation that was attacking another nation that reached peace without war? NO. The agresser must be defeated in battle, then the peace terms are laid out to be signed, when the agresser can no longer make war. The Kaiser in Germany had to be defeated in WWI, Hitler and Japan in WWII, etc. There must, unfortunatly, be war if there is to be an end. Of course, with these people, even THAT isn't the case. We won Desert Storm, but Saddam is still causing trouble.

Phoebe, sometimes the good, civilized people of the world who cherish life HAVE to take up arms and fight the evil people who hate freedom and happiness, and to defend that freedom and safety.

If we lived in a perfect world, where everyone took up tickling instead of murder, life would be a WHOLE ot better. But, unfortunatly, we don't live in that world...(well, WE, on this forum do, but more people enjoy hurting other people than making them laugh...)

 

[TicklingIsLife]

Just as long as no nukes are involved!

 

[Strelnikov]

YES

We are already fighting World War III. It's a war of cultures between
Western Civilization and Radical Islamism. The West stands for certain bedrock principles. One is constitutional government, i. e., limited powers and legitimacy based on the consent of the governed. The others are rule of law rather than by arbitrary decree, and respect for the political, religious, and economic rights of individuals. Islamists oppose all of those principles. Like the Evil Empire of the USSR, they are our enemy not because of what they do (though that's reason enough) but because of what they stand for.

The first shots in this war were fired at the 1972 Munich Olympics, when Black September terrorists murdered the Israeli athletes. The first direct attack against an American target was the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979-80. Until 9/11, we responded to attacks with diplomacy and restraint. The enemy interpreted this as weakness and irresolution. The 9/11 attacks were the direct result.

After 9/11, we destroyed the Al-Quaeda base in Afghanistan and evicted the Taliban. We've made serious inroads into their financial support network. There's a pro-Western government in Afghanistan that might, in a generation or two, evolve into a secular Muslim democracy like Turkey. Other governments in the region have fallen into line, either because they see it in their interest to do so, or because they fear the consequences if they do not. We gained the initiative, and were in a position to force events in directions of our own choosing. The logical next steps are a pre-emptive attack on Iraq and covert support for opponents of the Iranian and Syrian regimes.

The timing of the Palestinian terror bombing campaign against Israel is no coincidence. It's enemy action in the greater war, an attempt to counter our success since 9/11. Consider the following:

Israel's enemy is our enemy: Islamic extremists. The state sponsors and allies are the same: Libya, Iran, Iraq, Syria. The tactics are the same: murderous attacks on civilians, including women and children. They use their own women and children as human shields so that the Israeli response will result in television pictures of dead kids. That serves two purposes. Any Islamic government that cooperates with the West risks riots and insurrection at home. And it allows the anti-war Western Left to weep and wail, and prate about moral equivalency, thereby weakening Western resolve to finish this war, once and for all.

Make no mistake. This war isn't optional. There's no exit strategy except total victory. The enemy knows that too. It's going to get ugly.

Strelnikov

 

[JoBelle]

Random thoughts.....

The West....and the Radical Islamics...INDEED. That being the case, we're talking about a "war" that has been active since the birth of Islam. It's cultural, it's ethical, it's monetary, it's issue of respect, or the lack there of.

We will NEVER be able to compare the Western way of life with that of the Muslim world. It's apples and oranges. Islam does not carry within it's histoy a means to evolve with the rest of civilization. It ceased to be modern and forethinking hundreds of years ago, which is a shame.

From the standpoint of those who "have not," those that "have" are obviously evil. Take a look around your personal life. If you have confidence, you're obviously out to take something away from another person. If you have money, you're obviously mistreating the poor. If you have friends,you are obviously pandering. If you are ever better than anyone else in an area where they feel inferior...you are obviously the "bad seed." These things on a global scale are what these Radicals think of the Western World. That being known, this is a "war" that has but one end. Culturally speaking, it will be dragging the unwilling kicking and screaming into the light of modernity. There is beauty in variety, but at the hand of possible destruction of the whole......sigh....it's not worth it.

I believe that there is a willingness among some in power to SAY they will "martyr" themselves, but....self preservation is human nature. As far as nukes, using a nuclear bomb is a tool that even the most devout will likely turn away from. It holds too much "after effect" for the intelligent. Yes, agressive, animalistic, and with tunnel vision, but STILL intelligent.

I realize there are military actions to consider, but this war is firmly grounded in a theological shadow. I wonder how our "modern" world will handle the recovery from that?

Just rambling,
Joby

 

[qjakal]

Ramblin' ...Rose?

Glad to see you back to chiming in, Ms Jo! Too bad it's on such a dark thread though...this one is as bad as it gets. There can be no peace when one side desires war...even though it will likely cost them everything. Gotta love humans...we're interesting if nothing else,hmm? As for the modern techological world coming to grips with these dinosaurs...why bother? Any culture that isolates and refuses to utilize half it's population (women) is doomed anyway, so just think of it as a mercy killing. If any of you have traveled to that region and have seen the women of the Israeli army in position, you would have NO doubt of their capability in a tough situation and their willingness to do whatever is necessary to defend their nation. Contrast that with the sullen downward looking shuffling women of their enemy, and you can see the odds were never "even" to begin with. The Day Of Reckoning is indeed at hand for much of the world, Joby, and they have underestimated us badly....just the latest in a series of miscalculations dating back centuries. This is common when waging war using the "God is on our side" theory rather than sound military planning.....and letting God jump in on whatever issues he/she deems worthy. The evil days come again... Q

 

[Strelnikov]

Q is right. We'll win because of the superiority of our civilization. The only variable is how long it will take. Best to do the job right the first time and make an end to it.

There's a bright side to this war. Once we've conclusively defeated the enemy, they'll be forced to address their failings and correct them. Turkey is a secular democracy today because they were defeated and lost their empire in WWI.

Hal commented that change is unlikely because we can't expect people living in the 14th Century to adapt to the 21st Century. That's either a racist notion, or (more likely) he has underestimated the human race. As late as the 1920's, some Americans advocated excluding immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe. They reasoned that those people came from poor and backward regions, had no tradition or experience of democracy, had no skills useful in contemporary America, and furthermore were adherents to alien religions: Roman Catholics and Jews. Two of those undesireables were my grandparents. Mom was born here, and I challenge anyone to find any difference between her and any other White American woman of her generation.

Strelnikov



This is my 900th post. Counting down to Red Feather... Woo-hoo! Here I come!

 

[ShiningIce]

What about China?? Are they an ally or enemy??

 

[qjakal]

Enigma

China is a third world country with a population problem that we can barely imagine dealing with. Their ideology is confusing and riddled with contradictory philosophies and regulations. They are torn between millenia of ancient teachings and the brutality of post technology communism. They possess some of the elements of a superpower, but are so bogged down economically and socially that implementing anything but a land war would exhaust their meager resources rapidly. If we were located on the continent with them, Id say they were a force to be feared, (just ask Russia), but given the distance between us, we can view them as a nonthreating "enigma" of grand proportions. I'd like to say they are "potential" allies, but they need to sort out their own troubles a bit more and deal with the reality of a population that barely exists at the poverty level.

Without a doubt, they are one of the most fascinating nations on Earth.....Q

 

[Neutron]

Uh Dave

That wasn't just bushes plan. That's been the US Plan since the late 40s. Only the target package has changed.
As for me I believe the following. Every American life is worth 10000 foreign lives. Thats my going exchange rate. If the USA has to nuke someone to avenge Sept 11 then so be it. I thought we should have tosed a nuke on September 12. I even offered to pay for the first one. Nukes are frightening yes, but the days of them getting out of hand are over. It's quite simple, only the US and her allies have both the weapons AND the delivery systems to conduct a nuke attack. It'd be a one way affair and I guarantee after we chunk one at someone, a LOT of the terrorist problems go away. Remember a lot of this was caused simply because they didn't believe the USA would respond with any type of force. Respond with the mightiest force possible and NO ONE will harbor a terrorist organization.
Yeah I might sound vicious, but I'm speaking cold pure facts and logic. It's about time the US showed a bit of unitlateralism and made it damn clear to the rest of the world that their opinion is irrelevant to our national needs and policies.
Remember my exchange rate above, We're not anywhere near close to the payback yet. But I guarantee we'll get there.

Be safe

Tron

 

[Kunzite]

To be honest, this really just illustrates how much we live in a media age. Nothing has really changed globally except our attention to terrorism since Sept. 11. There has always been, and probably always will be, violence between Isreal and Palestine. Iraq has had nuclear weapons for years, and they have been using them as a scare tactic for as long. We the United States have always been willing to use nuclear weapons as a response to any Middle Eastern nation using them first; that's the reason why we still have them. Bush just likes to talk about it more than the Democrats did. So to put things in perspective, things aren't really that different than they always have been. The media has just been giving it a lot of attention, whereas before we didn't care. So stop building that bomb shelter, something tells me you won't be needing it.

 

[red indian]

Blimey Neutron!

Is the U.S. the only country on the planet entitled to have "national needs and policies"?

 

[Neutron]

Actually Iraq Doesn't Have

Any nuclear weapons, I'm a nuke engineer. I know this for a verifiable fact.
red indian. I'd imagine our attitude is no different than when you limeys had your empire eh?
Survival of the fittest my friend. And we, the USA are the fittest.
We'd gladly go away, but when Europe or wherever goes to hell whats the first thing you hear? Why doesn't the US do something.
As for the Middle East. Ya MIGHT wanna read and research your own history. If you follow it closely you'll find the root cause of a lot of the troubles thee dates back to the British. Cold facts, ya'll fucked that area up big time.
As for any other nation, no, they don't matter. I love people in general but non Americans are at our whim and will.


Tron

 

[shark]

China

Ally or enemy? Get real.
They have threatened to nuke Los Angeles over our support of Taiwan.
Thanks to Clinton,they now have the technology to accurately aim ICBMs
and have them aimed at US targets.
They embrace a philosophy that preaches global dominance,the more radical supporting violent overthrow of opposing governments.If anyone doesn't believe this,they should take a course on communism.
When one of our planes had to crash land in China,the crew was held as captives, and had to be bargained out. The plane was held for examination. Would the UK,Canada,or even Taiwan done this?
Just because we aren't actively shooting at each other doesn't mean we're friends.

A local letter to the editor suggested that we make it known that any further attacks on the US be met with the nuking of Mecca.Maybe precede it with dropping of pork byproducts.

As far as Neutron's "exchange rate",realize that making the costs unbearably high is a strong deterrent to hostile action.Before someone starts talking about the civilians,also realize that it was their leadership that put them in a bad position,and many times with the support of that population.And as of today,our civilian dead alone number over 3000.

 

[qjakal]

China...

China "says" a lot of things...sometimes very contradictory things wihtin a short time period. Our best guess is that their government is in a nearly constant state of flux...various factions becoming dominant and fading at a rate that seems odd to us in the extreme. Given their current economical limitations, I'd worry more about the MidEast as a problem area...China will be struggling within its own systems for a few more generations. Their policies regarding reproduction limits are an incredible social experiment...as well as a sign of their desperation to curtail the cycle of slow death they have apparently trapped themselves within. To limit couples to one child in a society that values children above gold is like throwing matches into a fireworks factory while blindfolded and dizzy. The coming implosion will be spectacular in size, and all I pray for( as well as Russia and its satellites) is that they don't decide to initiate a land war out of sheer desperation to reduce their population to a manageable figure. If anyone here has ever read Alan Drurys novels dealing with the political infrastructure of Asia, it's fascinating how well he predicted this "model" of their society decades ago.... Q

 

[red indian]

"Non Americans are at our whim and will"

Goodness thats a comforting thought for the British commandos currently on combat missions in Afghanistan! so which part of the "nuke" industry are you engaged in Neutron? i hope for all our sakes its nearer the hat check consession sector then the big red button end of the business.

 

[Neutron]

Reactors

Currently reactors, but I have been involved in the other side of the house, ie weaponry.
As for British Commandos. We let the second string ride along. We'd have whipped the Taliban without you.

Again. one nuke, this terrorist crap ends.

Tron

 

[qjakal]

Maybe...

Or escalates with nations that are currently "fence sitting" being drawn into the fray. Being an engineer and working with our countries ultimate weapon, you are obviously aware of the different types of nukes in existence. Would you say that the only country with the requisite expertise to drop a fairly "clean" nuclear weapon and have a decent chance of correctly estimating the radius of fallout and aftereffects is the USA, and would any of the newcomers to the Nuclear Club have any reasonable chance of actually knowing what they were doing, assuming they could ever get a delivery system into operation? Scary times, especially once you open the Pandoras Box of the nuke... Q

 

[red indian]

Whipping?

Who mentioned whipping guys Neutron? this is a serious bebate, keep your sex life to yourself please!