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Kramer loses it

Celtic_Emperor

Celtic_Emperor

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I kind of don't care much about him, and he doesn't care about me. He made so much money from Seinfeld, he can probably do whatever he wants.
Who knows what was going through his mind.
I will say that America likes comedians who are frantically spontaneous, and having those few things you can't say makes that much harder. Kind of like in 8 Mile, which was of course entirely scripted. But maybe in some way he felt (for a few infuriated minutes) like he was getting back at non-white comedians who throw around racial slurs. I bet there'll be a backlash.
I think this is one of the primary differences between American culture and European.
 
I, like alot of people in that audiance, laughed and thought it was funny at first. Even throughout the sheer seriousness of his tone of voice kept me laughing as he taunted the hecklers. People in the audiance did the same, and they were, from what is reported, people of different races and ethnic backgrounds. They were also clapping and applauding him at first, which says alot when you think about it, even though many got up and left after a while.

While it is almost a given to expect a black person to take grave offense to this, feedback I've seen from other blacks is not severe at all, and many laugh at it the same way I and the people in attendance did.

Were his words truely based in malice and hate? I don't think so. He said publically in various media outlets (and on Jay Leno, via satelite) that he was sorry and that he exploded and is sorry for that.

What I think happened was that he was just looking for a way to hurt them as much as they hurt him and the word nigger (I'm sorry, I won't say "the n-word") was, in his frantic state, the best method of assurance that he could hurt them specifically in a good enough way that made him feel vindicated against them. I do not think it was an attack on blacks, and it is obvious that it was not premeditated. He simply took it too far and should have quit while he was ahead. He let the passion of the moment sweep him up, and that was his mistake.

What I do think he tried to do though, which is what is wrong, is he tried to salvage the performance by trivializing it at the end and by trying to blend it into his act. He shows that he was too proud, at the time, to even think he was wrong or out of line. I'm sure that soon after, he realized what he had done and then planned the apologies.

Because there is no footage of the entire performance that I know of, I have no way of knowing whether he was successful in the early parts and whether he was entertaining the audiance and they liked it. I suppose that if he was doing a good job he would be in higher spirits and wouldn't have lost his cool because of some hecklers he could have easily ignored. Rather, it would make sense for him to snap if he knew he was doing poorly and wasn't creating the atmosphere he wanted. Add in some guys giving you a hard time, and the ingriedients are there for a lapse in good judgement and conscience.

As far as blacks making blacks jokes that are racially based and that being ok, but if a white man does it its a crime against humanity, well....thats just one of those double standards. Somehow, a racist comment (joke or otherwise) directed at one of your own, or at an audiance of your own is fine and taken as crude humor thats just under the limits enough that its not entirely dispicable, yet is powerful enough to be controversial which the performer will sometimes use for hits and attention.

Was Michael Richards trying to be controversial? I highly doubt it. He just snapped, and while he payed for it morally and was humbled, I got a laugh out of the whole thing, as I'm sure many did. Just the tone of his voice alone was funny and some of the things he said, not because he said the word over and over (7 times I believe). I'm not going to suddenly hate him just because he said the word nigger while enraged. I don't think its something he would say if he was calm or confident, so I believe him when he says he's not a racist. Using the word nigger repeatedly doesn't necessarily qualify someone as a racist just by the word usage alone. I believe what makes alot of people feel that it does, in this case, is simply because he was enraged while saying it. That factor alone makes it look bad for him, which is ultimately irrelevant since it was not well taken anyway.

"Oooooohhhh oooh! This shocks you?! It shocks you to see whats buried beneath you stupid motherfuckers?!"- Richards

"That was uncalled for!"- heckler

"What was uncalled for? It's uncalled for you to interupt my ass, you cheap motherfucker!"- Richards

LOL. Priceless.
 
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I also realized thinking about it that one guy in the audience is screaming "cracker" at him. Stuff gets perpetuated that way. Someone insults one guy's race, he insult theirs, neither realizing the many uninvolved people they're insulting.
So Kramer gets tagged in the media but not the guy screaming "cracker" at him. What makes those things different? I don't think it's as simple as who started it.
 
Yeah. And paying closer attention to something he said makes sense. Like I quoted, he says "This shocks you? It shocks you to see whats buried beneath you motherfuckers?!"

Analyzing it now, it would seem he was talking to the whites and non-blacks in the audiance when he said this. At first it just seemed like crazy banter and he didn't know what he was talking about, but if you look at what he said there, he's also pointing out how white people have alot of nerve being upset over something that many of them, secretly, deep down have a problem with- black people. "Oh come on! You're no better! I'm just saying what you're all thinking!" is the feeling I got from it when he said it.

He's pointing out the hypocricy of non-blacks here. While that doesn't make what he said right, it does tie into what you're saying a little, as well as redeem him a bit. If he's willing to bash people who just so happen to be black AND he's also willing to insult/chide whites in the process, then he's not a racist, but, rather, is just making dispairing remarks that are in bad taste. And, again, I mention he was angry when doing so, which makes alot of difference that people that call him a racist will not account for.
 
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Richards has a lot of money I would suspect and now it's possible that he could have to hold on to his savings as I can't see many more improv gigs coming after this nonsense. I'm a big believer in walking away from trouble if at all possible and it certainly was in this case. Ol' Kramer should have just put the mike back and walked off stage and did an interview stating that racial comments were being hurled at him. I know we all lose our temper sometimes but we always have to pay for it as Richards is going to learn possibly for the rest of his career.
 
Maybe. Reports said he was back at the same place the following night, though that may be false in light of the fact he's not welcome there until he apologizes to "the black community" as the owner of the club said. I guess his private apologies and the public one on Jay Leno weren't enough and never will be for some people.

Also, I want to clear something up that one of the hecklers said. He said Richards has never been in any movies or has done anything other than Seinfeld. This is not true. Its just that he's most popular for the Cosmo Kramer role, and this guy assumed it was the only work he had. Quite an untruth. Though, after hearing what he heard from Richards, I don't blame him for just saying it, even though its not true. He too was just trying to attack Richards back.

I see this as an interpersonal conflict between two people that just so happened to include an audiance. He wasn't talking to everyone, just them, and vice-versa.
 
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Of course, its easy to say that in retrospect, Valerie. The heat of the moment often makes people do and say all sorts of crazy things that they're going to regret. Its human nature, but I will say that some have better control over it, and themselves, than others do.

His biggest mistake was being there in the first place. He's an actor, not a stand-up comic. He was like a fish out of water. This incident doesn't doom him, nor does it mean he cannot succeed in this business (other actors have, though many of them were stand-up comics before they did tv and film- Jerry Seinfeld being an obvious case). Its just an early obstacle he'll have to overcome.
 
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.....and i for one found seinfelds response to what happened kinda funny.That was in my opinion,completely false and pathetic.He spoke of how is was shocked and saddened and worries for his "friend".BULLSHIT! Seinfeld never cared for anyone but himself.He's a real "I...me" kinda guy.I'm sure he's only concerned about what richards tirade will do to sales on seinfelds new dvd realease that just came out......you don't fool me jerry!
 
Well I've seen the clip, and I watched the TV coverage about it as well. To be honest, I think it's a tempest in a tea cup. Much ado about nothing. If blacks can call each other 'nigger', and not be offended, why should they be offended when someone else calls them that? Total hypocracy. Then if a black person calls a white one 'cracker' and they don't think that's racisim, or that it is but it's alright because they're 'race' was discriminated against? Total rampant hypocracy. And for those who are blowing this WAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion need to get a reality check instead of trying to grandstand for themselves and make much ado about nothing. Sheesh.

That's not to say that I support what Kramer did, mind you. However, I just wish that people all over the world would just give themselves a reality check and think about this for just a second. There aren't multiple races, twits. Otherwise they would change the phrase 'the human race' to 'the human races'. Not to mention there would be different scientific designations for each different 'race' and show actual proof that we are all different from one another. There isn't. We are all one race. Just live and in technicolor. Get a grip, people. :angry:
 
Well personally, anybody that is going to say "nigger" to a black person; and intend it to be hurtful and insulting.... then that's what he intended. Plain and simple. Whatever his motives were (to be funny, shocking or whatever), there are a dozen different ways he could have achieved the same effect, without resorting to racist slurs; and in the end, he went with the cheapest and easiest way.

Basically, I think Kramer rated himself. I held him up to a higher standard, but now he's just like any other comedian trying to scrounge around for a laugh, even if it means resorting to racial slurs and profuse cussing...

Is he a racists? I don't necessarily think so; but I think he has shown his limits in terms of talent as a comedian; he surely isn't a Seinfeld, or a Robert Williams, or even a Dave Chapelle for that matter...

gg Kramer, you got pwnd.

P.S. I'm black (more or less, I have Mexican/native American blood as well); and I've been called "nigger" by people from all races (White, Asian, Arabs etc). It never bothers me until somebody uses it, and you can see the venom in their eyes; then it's not so much about what he said, as much as it is about his intent on being confrontational. He could have said "peanut butter!" and the same message of hostility and hatred would have come across just as clear.

And to anybody who plays the "its okay when black ppl do it" card; you clearly don't understand the situation, and should read up on a little history.

And no it is not "okay" for one black man to call another a "nigger". However, some people ascribe it to the philosophy of taking something negative and making it into a positive thing; so for one black to call another "my nigga" (note the accent) is akin to calling him "my brother"… but not all of us agree with it, its more of a "non-conformist" way of thinking; a way to sorta "buck the system", if you will.

….It's the same with women who call other women "bitch" or "my bitch". Doesn't make it okay for a man to call another woman "bitch" but some women think it's cool to call each other that for the same reasons. It's all about taking something derogatory and oppressive, and turning it into a badge of honor… I don't see the point of it, but some people dig it.
 
Fellow comedian Paul Rodriguez said after the event, "If you say n***** and you're not African-American, something's wrong."

I don't think you can put it any better.

Snail Shell
 
Cheers for opening this post - I read about it on AOL news when I logged on just a bit ago and was interested in hearing more about it, so cheers.

It seems that there is a lot of opinion here. Whether he meant it in malice or in jest? Whether he continued to speak in anger afterwards and talk seriously, I just don't know. Fact of the matter is that saying stuff like that will obviously offend some people. Probably a lot of people. But so far as I know he's apologised for it, quite sincerely. He went on the following night without incident, I believe.

Our anger gets the better of us all sooner or later, more with some than others. It was wrong to say what he did - if it was in anger and intending to hurt - but he has apologised. The "n" word is one of those words which has a lot of stigma attached to it, and different people respond to it in different ways. I just avoid it all together 🙂

If the man can't take heckling then what's he doing up on stage? If he's gonna snap - and he did, cos he said he did - then he shouldn't be up there. Comedians deal with hecklers all the time, with wit and cleverness, not abuse. I think what he did was wrong, but he has apologised. Hell, there are a lot of people who do a lot worse!

It's a big conversation and I don't wanna go any further into it or my mind will turn inside out and I'll die. But thanks for the link - good thread!

Moondog 😀
 
Betchass said:
I think this is one of the primary differences between American culture and European.
Click to expand...

After seeing the video, i found it really too "gentle" to provoke a real shock to some people, okay the guy was aggressive, but he wanted a reaction from the audience, and he get the bad one. In Europe you see comedians telling such things in shows, that some could not handle it. The audience reaction is many times like *whooo, what she/he says* and after it's laugh cause it's has never to be taken at first degree. Shows are about : religion, politics, racism, old people, military, injuried people etc etc etc , it's seems harsh sometimes, but very funny as well : it's called "dark humor", some like some don't , i understand, but if people take everything personal, what's the meaning of humor ?
 
ILove2Tickle said:
Well I've seen the clip, and I watched the TV coverage about it as well. To be honest, I think it's a tempest in a tea cup. Much ado about nothing. If blacks can call each other 'nigger', and not be offended, why should they be offended when someone else calls them that? Total hypocracy. Then if a black person calls a white one 'cracker' and they don't think that's racisim, or that it is but it's alright because they're 'race' was discriminated against? Total rampant hypocracy. And for those who are blowing this WAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion need to get a reality check instead of trying to grandstand for themselves and make much ado about nothing. Sheesh.

That's not to say that I support what Kramer did, mind you. However, I just wish that people all over the world would just give themselves a reality check and think about this for just a second. There aren't multiple races, twits. Otherwise they would change the phrase 'the human race' to 'the human races'. Not to mention there would be different scientific designations for each different 'race' and show actual proof that we are all different from one another. There isn't. We are all one race. Just live and in technicolor. Get a grip, people. :angry:
Click to expand...

Ive seen it. I'll tell you this. I'm black and I hate the word nigger with a total passion. And believe me I will quickly chastise any young black man or woman stupid enough to call their friends or anyone else that damn word. Ive gotten into arguments and physical altercations with some young brothers over the use of that word. Blacks back in the day where hanging by their necks dying on the end of a rope, being called nigger, lynch the nigger, kill the nigger. I dont abide that word. Or any derogatory insult to someones ethnicity.
 
SYELLA said:
Ive seen it. I'll tell you this. I'm black and I hate the word nigger with a total passion. And believe me I will quickly chastise any young black man or woman stupid enough to call their friends or anyone else that damn word. Ive gotten into arguments and physical altercations with some young brothers over the use of that word. Blacks back in the day where hanging by their necks dying on the end of a rope, being called nigger, lynch the nigger, kill the nigger. I dont abide that word. Or any derogatory insult to someones ethnicity.
Click to expand...

If you're a caucasian whose in the public eye and you use the "N" word...you have just terminated your career. That's the truth of the situation whether you deem if fair or unfair. :unwell:
 
i'm also wondering about the concern of the comedy club itself in this entire matter.If they were so shocked and disgusted by what he said and walking off stage..then why was he allowed to return to do his second show??
 
From what I've heard he was allowed to come back as they were expecting him to apologize. He's now no longer welcomed, as he didn't apologize till even after his second act.

Personally, the way his voice gets, and what he says (this shocks you, what lies beneath mother fuckers) is almost kinda...I don't want to say emotional, but it is. We all claim that we've overcome racism, but "there's still those words." I don't think they shoudl be used, but they also shouldn't provoke a big response. Blame to go around on this one.
 
Well, the way I see it; you can't blame people for being upset. So I don't think the blame "goes around" at all.

If you say something to piss people off, and they get pissed; how can you blame them? Obviously you wouldn’t be insulted by the word 'nigger', but its clear that other people are. Substitute 'nigger' for any other racial epithet and you can piss off any person with feelings…

At least Michael didn't get chairs/bottles thrown at him, the hecklers he cussed out simply left and spoke out against it. I think it was handled in a very classy manner IMO.

It was a smart move on Michael's part to apologize on the David Letterman show, and have his boy Jerry back him up. He's now positioned as the sympathetic victim, who had an outburst lol, and if us blacks don't accept his apology we're going to end up looking bad. Smart way to play the media 😉

But hey, personally I can give the guy this much: He screwed up. He's human, he had a moment where he let his emotions take over and he said things he shouldn't have. Any other comedian would have probably turned the tables on the hecklers in a comedic way, but he wasn't able to pull it off at that time; every comedian has their bad nights, and Kramer just happened to have one of those nights.

So ya, he called some black hecklers niggers; they got pissed and told him off, he apologized… eventually this will be put behind us, and if Michael continues to play his cards right he might end up gaining a few more fans over it.
 
alf said:
After seeing the video, i found it really too "gentle" to provoke a real shock to some people, okay the guy was aggressive, but he wanted a reaction from the audience, and he get the bad one. In Europe you see comedians telling such things in shows, that some could not handle it. The audience reaction is many times like *whooo, what she/he says* and after it's laugh cause it's has never to be taken at first degree. Shows are about : religion, politics, racism, old people, military, injuried people etc etc etc , it's seems harsh sometimes, but very funny as well : it's called "dark humor", some like some don't , i understand, but if people take everything personal, what's the meaning of humor ?
Click to expand...

I meant the difference between America and Europe to be the fact that the descendents of slaves from a different continent live and work very closely with the descendents of slavers. There were white slaves in North Africa long before there were Africans in the Americas, but there weren't as many, not enough to grow into a major segment of the population. South America, somewhat, but then there aren't as many white people there now.
And lots of people and places have been intolerant and unfair, but in the USA it was WRITTEN as LAW, so it's not going to be forgotten any time soon.
 
Snail Shell said:
Fellow comedian Paul Rodriguez said after the event, "If you say n***** and you're not African-American, something's wrong."

I don't think you can put it any better.

Snail Shell
Click to expand...

And he's African-American?
I don't agree with this. No one can decide what's good for someone else to say. I actually think the swinging from trees reference and the other hints at "justice" are creepier than shouting the n word.

In other news, thousands of U.S. citizens are still being held against their will in Iraq.
 
ah big misread from me :/
i won't go into polemic cause i've never been to the USA, so i can't tell by myself, just of points like you say. but for me anywhere, people have the right to live without being persecuted for any kind of thing it is. that's just stupid, world must go onwards not backwards. the sad thing is that here many nationalist parties do reemerge, and things are sometimes scary.

we must fight stupidity folks 🙂
 
Several people have said that he should have had more control, or whatever.

If a white guy was heckling a black guy, and the black comedian called the white fella a "honky" or "cracker" or a white ethnic slur, nobody would care. At all. That removes a great deal of interest I have in this. It's so "cool" to dig on white folks these days. You can say whatever you want about whites. But if a white guy says anything about someone else? OMG ITS TEH RACE WARRRRRR!!!!!!111

Gimme a freakin' break. Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with this double standard? Michael Richards is the victim here, not the jackasses who heckled him...

Why? They were hecklers, so I seriously have no sympathy at all. Not a single ounce. He could have insulted their pedigree and it would have been okay. Hecklers are a lower form of life that deserve NO RESPECT. If any of you have ever performed on stage and had hecklers, you'll know where I'm coming from. If you haven't, then I place no value on your opinion.

Stop standing up for double standards and inequality, people. That's all any of this is.

Sorry, I'm tired of living in a country where it's "cool" to insult me and not being able to say anything about it.

Go Michael Richards. Cosmo Kramer FOREVER.

I think I'm going to go write some ROCK AND ROLL music about how much rap sucks.
 
the_jimmy_james said:
[snip]what james said[/snip]
Click to expand...
Part of me does think that he could have had a little more self control than he did. Part of me thinks that, being a comedian, he should have been able to use that comedy to put the ruckus-makers down. The other, and somewhat larger, part of me agrees with Mr. James: if those hecklers couldn't take the heat, why'd they heckle? I recall hearing somewhere (Correct me if I'm wrong) that they threw cracker at him before or during his outburst. If true, that negates any outrage I have that Mr. Richards used the 'ol N-word. You want to hurl racial slurs? Expect them back. You feel like complaining? I could really care less. Doesn't matter who you are. Black, white, green, purple, show some respect. Yes, he lost it. But those fools in the crowd should have shown some control themselves and given the man, who was entertaining them, the respect any fellow human deserves. If they didn't enjoy the performance, well, they could have left quietly. That's what I'd do. By being a disruption, you not only disrespect the performer but you disrespect your fellow audience members who may well be enjoying the performance.
 
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