Kramer loses it

[Umojar]

That firefighter thing is ridiculous. I can understand somewhat where their case was coming from, and even if it was racist, unless they mixed poison with that dogfood, a public apology is the most it was worth.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

That radio show I listen to, John and Ken, have had alot of black callers call in to speak of their disgust for Tennie, and that he is a shame upon the black people and that many black people have become their own worst enemy. Many of them also made very wonderful statements (blacks and whites) about how figures like Jessy Jackson, Al Sharpton, and other civil rights leaders who assume a position of so-called rightiousness are further nailing the stigma of the blacks' pain and suffering on their own kind.

Many of the black callers (whether its with this dogfood thing or something else) truely believe that black people are too angry for their own good and that they cannot heal themselves if they won't let the past go or stop thinking about the past and starting thinking about the future. I wish I could have recorded some of these conversations (I think they may be in the John and Ken audio archives though...) as they put it in words I don't have a way of doing right now.

To put it another way, the blacks are just as responsible for the hate that revolves around them than any other ethnicity is. People like Sharpton may seem like they're looking out for their black brothers and sistas, but they're not allowing you to heal or adapt a new way of thinking. Just when you make some progress, they there rear their heads talking about other ways the man is still keeping you down, and thats like rubbing salt in a wound. They won't let you or us be. By championing and complaining about something old and new, they continue to incite rage and hate and loathing for whites and others, and the blame goes on anyone but the black people, which is racism in itself.

Slavery is done and over, thankfully. It was a horrible thing, but its over. People like Sharpton and Jackson are power-mongers who keep their influence by keeping the hate of the black people and the passion which fuels it, alive. People like these guys are poisoning the minds of the people who listen to them. What they say may sound sweet and comforting, but its filled with malice. They want black people to forever think that whites are indebted to them and we own restitutions.

It is the black people who drink their cool-aid that are "keepin' the brotha down", not anyone else. The social and political atmosphere cannot change if these civil rights leaders don't get what the program and start leading their flocks in new and better directions. They don't actually want to solve anything. They like that blacks are bitter and resentful. In their twisted logic, it means that the whiteman will never be able to live this down, and that we'll always owe you.

All the white people of TODAY owe you is equal opportunity. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. Alot of it depends on you, your character, and what you have to offer society. Theres plenty of successful black men and women who came from the ghettos dispite the lifestyle therein and the odds against them actually making it in a white man's game. Blacks are not just confined to the ghettos anymore, and they're in mainstream society like everone else.

I'll admit the deck is stacked against you, but its not because of racism anymore, but more and more because of circumstance. Victims of circumstance and society? Definitely. A pit that you cannot get out of? Hardly.

Jessy and the others want you in that pit, though, because it keeps your hate alive. Even if things were as they idealised for every black person in America, they would still want you brooding and festering because if you were not, you'd eventually ALL embrace whites and the lessons of hate that are taught to you would eventually be replaced. They feel that until blacks are in a superior position, the hate is a weopon that they can mask and use as they see fit. They're making you all look bad. Like a bunch of whiners, money-grabbers, and a whole lot of pety human beings, so much so that many of your own people dispise you for it and are embarassed by you.

Alot of people think Bush is a cancer to the government. Well, Jessy Jackson and Al Sharpton are the cancers of the black community in the American of today. As long as THEY'RE ok, they don't give a damn about you. Its just lipservice. They've already sold you all down the river. They're manipulative and they're clever. They're Uncle Toms, yet they're trying to play both sides and double-dip. Its how they make their way in the world, and its dishonorable, especially as one of them claims to be a man of God.

Martin Luther King Jr. must be spinning in his grave. :dead:

 

[DarthGrinn]

Of course it's not. I never implied, nor do many whites when mentioning the double-standard, that it was. The people that did suffer through that had to deal with that stuff. But that doesn't mean one generation has a right to pull that kinda thing out and use it to their advantage when THEY weren't the ones that suffered it (a certain Chapelle Show skit comes to mind here). Just cuz there were bad things that happened to someone in the past doesn't neccesarily mean it should be the source of bias in the future.

Excess. So in that vein; skin-heads have no right to call themselves "Aryan" because they weren't one of Hitler's Young Tigers? That doesn't seem to stop these punks from going around and persecuting everybody who isn't white now, does it?

That's not really the issue (although there are some that will undoubtedly look at it that way, whether they black or white). But that's not my point at all.

Think of it as sort of like 9/11 and "we shall never forget". It's not that black people are "too angry for their own good" or whatever; we just don't want the race related hatred and persecution that our predecessors went through to happen again. Now, I'm not educated enough on the current climate in the US to make a fair assessment about the racial tension between whites and blacks, but the way I see it; as long as there is racism in the world, any race that could be a target of it has to be on guard.

I'm not advocating segregation or anything crazy like that, but I'm not going to saw my own foot off either; and pretend like it's all honkey-dory because I might offend the white folk 😛 And then turn around and pretend like its okay when some racist sees fit to call me out on my skin-tone.

To put it in another way; there are still white people that target and hate black people (and by "black" I mean anybody who is non-white; including African, Asian, Arab or whatever). So their complaints will always be valid. So, if racism has lead to society placing a double-standard in favor of the "blacks", because of awareness and sensitivity... it's better than the total opposite. And as I said before, that's why the justice system exists, to weed out the crap.

Slavery may be over (in the USA, its still going on elsewhere) but racism isn't. And just as Blacks need to heal and adapt a new way of thinking, Vlad, so do a lot of Whites…

And one more thing rtl; racism is racism, and hate-mongering is hate-mongering. Period. Just because gay people may not have a "history" like black people doesn't make it any better. Now, whether or not he might have been offended by the dog food thing, none of us can say, but for him to want SO much for it just seems like pure greed for money moreso than from being offended IMO.

And I never alluded to gay jokes being okay. All I meant was, they are very common in frat boy culture, so they aren't as stigmatized as they should be (and that is definitely a bad thing). Just as hazing is a part of the frat boy culture; so is callin' one another '******', or 'gay/ghey/g3y'. But only the most diehard gangsta rap lovin frat boys would call one another 'nigga' and they most certainly wouldn't call a black person that (there are exceptions of course).

So, just as you can't really say whether or not he was genuinely offended... I can't say for sure if that the prank was done in good spirit either; I can't say if everything is as kosher as it appears. Was Mr. Pierce really on good terms with all of his comrades that day? What were the events that lead up to the dog-food incident? Maybe there was a racial issue going on earlier, or perhaps one particular Fireman was involved with racially insulting Mr. Pierce in the past, and harassed him for it? Who knows?

I know this crowd isn't a stranger to speculating all angles from a particular story, as evident from the twists and turns this thread has taken… so... I'll give Mr. Pierce the benefit of my doubt in this case and advocate that he may be in the right to sue 😉 (It's still America right?)

Oh, and everybody who can sue, sues for a lot of money. The USA isn't a stranger to this; again, that's why we have courts. Personally I've read about lawsuits that were even sillier, so Pierce wouldn't be the first or the last to try to make a buck off of his own personal plight.

Also, whether or not he's greedy is questionable; who said the 2 mill dollar figure was Pierce's own personal decision, and not that of his lawyer? As far as I know Pierce may not have even wanted any money, but his lawyer saw an opportunity to make some cash and a name for himself, and pumped his client's head full of enough BS, and now he's all caught up in it... We've all seen enough lawyer shows on TV to know how tricksy lawyerses can be *hisss* And again, that's what the courts are for…

Anyway hopefully people on both side of the racial fence, in the US, will be able to sort it out and tear the fence down.

LOL good find ticklishgiggle. I don't think Micheal Richards will be able to live that outburst down for a long time...

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Also, whether or not he's greedy is questionable; who said the 2 mill dollar figure was Pierce's own personal decision, and not that of his lawyer? As far as I know Pierce may not have even wanted any money, but his lawyer saw an opportunity to make some cash and a name for himself, and pumped his client's head full of enough BS, and now he's all caught up in it... We've all seen enough lawyer shows on TV to know how tricksy lawyerses can be *hisss* And again, that's what the courts are for…

Oh, he wanted the money, which is why he complained to begin with. 2.7 million dollars is what he figured he would have made had he retired at that point. But he wants the money AND his pension (which would mean he would have double-dipped, and thats a no-no.) He didn't sue to not get money and he didn't need her to fill his head with nonsense. He did that on his own. And his lawyer is a woman.

The public said no. The mayor said no. The council said no. They're only continuing to fight because of greed. They know they've lost. Their greed, masked as anti-racism, isn't going to work. This, unlike MANY race cases from the past, is going to flop. And lots of people are going to be happy when it does. Because this will finally show that anyone that uses their skin color to get money won't just have it handed to them. Which is what this whole thing was about- not just handing it to him because he's black, but, because he supposedly deserved it, which he didn't under all the circumstances....which is why he has nothing so far. He should just settle for his pension like everyone else and just disappear.

I don't want to argue with you, but please don't talk hypothetically about a case you aren't following or know anything about. It makes you seem presumptious and ignorant. And that does not stand up well with facts.

Aside from this, none of your responses are directed at me, rather, they are directed at Excess, so hopefully you two will be able to agree to disagree.

 

[Wade1]

To put it another way, the blacks are just as responsible for the hate that revolves around them than any other ethnicity is. People like Sharpton may seem like they're looking out for their black brothers and sistas, but they're not allowing you to heal or adapt a new way of thinking. Just when you make some progress, they there rear their heads talking about other ways the man is still keeping you down, and thats like rubbing salt in a wound.

This whole argument--which I infer you're paraphrasing from these radio call-in listeners, is that right?--strikes me as naive. One doesn't have to like Sharpton or Jesse to think that exclusively blaming the anger of blacks for race problems is blinkered and unpersuasive. It's condescending and counterproductive to encourage people to overlook racial injustices of today based on the fact that at least they're better than they used to be. Advising a member of a minority group not to call attention to a racial slight based on the expectation that if they just get over their anger and heal now, things will get better later is psychologically unlikely, extremely convenient for the groups that are in power, and has little to do with the concepts of justice and fairness.

In order to buy into these critiques of black leaders like Jackson and Sharpton 100% one must believe either that racism is behind us--which I think is a denial of reality--or that if African-Americans just suck it up and stop complaining about racism today, it'll be gone tomorrow--which is a huge leap of faith.

I'm of the opinion that economic class is probably the greatest predictor of future success in the USA today--that if you're poor then the deck is stacked against you regardless of what color you are, and that if you're not poor then you enjoy advantages quite apart from your color. But it would be simplistic to suggest that race is no longer a factor.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

This whole argument--which I infer you're paraphrasing from these radio call-in listeners, is that right?--strikes me as naive.

Nope. I just mentioned that as it refered to various opinions from different people from different ethnicities on this issue. At no point and time did "the whole argument" depend or revolve around what some anonymous callers on some radio show said. If thats what you're "infering", then that also strikes me as "naive."

One doesn't have to like Sharpton or Jesse to think that exclusively blaming the anger of blacks for race problems is blinkered and unpersuasive.

One didn't say they had to, nor was anything exclusively blamed on them. They are just two of the obvious persons I could use as examples of those who are perpetuators.

It's condescending

Who is anyone talking down to?

and counterproductive

We're having a conversation because of it. I wouldn't say its counterproductive. We all know nobody is going to walk away with this instantly changed by what someone else said. So to act in a way where results are expected in order to make it valid or worthwhile, is a bit much. It is because people here do not feel the same way that this thread is even possible. And because of that fact, I thank you.

to encourage people to overlook racial injustices of today based on the fact that at least they're better than they used to be.

I see no no one here deliberately doing that. Moreover, this is about a case (both the Michaels rant and this dogfood thing) where there was no true injustice. In the case of Michaels, he said things he shouldn't have. He apologized. Thats all he has to do. If "justice" means he too now needs to shill out money because he said nigger over and over again, then I call that an injustice. What he said was wrong, but if justice= monetary compensation, and thats what people are wanting or implying, then I feel that that too is injustice of a different kind. I call it fraud and blackmailing.

In the case of Tennie Pierce, he ate a bite of dogfood as it was a prank. It is nothing above or below something he would have done, as it was so painfully made clear with his past hazings, rituals, pranks, and jokes.

Because he's black and was fed dogfood has nothing to do with slavery today. Would it have meant something back then? Of course. Obviously. But we're not living on the plantations anymore. "Here, negro! Eat yer food! Har har har!" isn't what the firemen said, nor did they force feed him as if to simulate what an overseer or slave owner might do. They slipped him the dogfood to one-up him for pranking them and for his having bragged about being "the big dog" on the volleyball court.

It is because of his gloating and not because of how blacks used to be treated under the most extreme of examples- the slavery days, that he was fed the dog food mixed with his spagetti.

To take what happened out of context so severely and obviously, and then wanting 2.7 million dollars is whats an injustice here. And whats even worse, is the slap in the faces to his so called "friends", the firefighters whom he's betrayed in order to make something of this and make aqquiring money he doesn't even deserve, possible.

Advising a member of a minority group not to call attention to a racial slight based on the expectation that if they just get over their anger and heal now, things will get better later is psychologically unlikely, extremely convenient for the groups that are in power, and has little to do with the concepts of justice and fairness.

No one advised anyone to ignore or not call attention to racial slight. I would want them to if it was legitimate, truthful, and something as a last recourse. Lots of these issues blacks have with the other party could easily be settled out of court with no money. It could easily be about getting together, making ammends, and have true heart to hearts. Forcing someone to pay up doesn't equal an "I'm sorry", even if they are really sorry.

That we live in a world though, and specifically this country though, where justice is tied too closely with money, and aqquiring the money so as to feel vindicated, we have characters like Jackson and Sharpton running around.

Doing anything differently only seems bizarre because suing is a cornerstone in this country and people too closely associate justice and vindication with a lump sum. It is very sad that happiness can be bought with money. And whats sadder is that people delute their thinking enough to think this is actually true. I'm sure they realize its not eventually. Money doesn't make pain go away. Suing someone's pants off doesn't make someone's "racism" go away either. That person will still be there and you'll still be angry, even with your fistfulls of cash.

Justice and fairness is not found in a dollar bill. That suing is even an option in cases of racial discrimination of this sort is whats an injustice, especially if its coming out of the taxpayers' pockets.

In order to buy into these critiques of black leaders like Jackson and Sharpton 100% one must believe either that racism is behind us--which I think is a denial of reality--or that if African-Americans just suck it up and stop complaining about racism today, it'll be gone tomorrow--which is a huge leap of faith.

In order to get along one must acknowledge that 100%s are not necessary to a conversation. It is not invalid because you cannot aqquire 100%. In fact, thats a trick, as getting someone to agree 100% when they're already opposed to what you're saying is impossible.

Racism is not behind us. No one is denying anything.

African-Americans do need to start sucking up anything. It is obvious to point out that blacks changing their viewpoint end up with the equation partially solved. Whites and others need to participate, but the blacks themselves are the most instrumental in this process, since it revolves around them and how they change, evolve, and adapt as a community and individuals.

I'm of the opinion that economic class is probably the greatest predictor of future success in the USA today--that if you're poor then the deck is stacked against you regardless of what color you are, and that if you're not poor then you enjoy advantages quite apart from your color. But it would be simplistic to suggest that race is no longer a factor.

I'm of the same opinion.

 

[alf1]

African-Americans do need to start sucking up anything

i have a question : why do you say African-Americans instead of Americans ?

 

[DarthGrinn]

Well, Vlad, you have followed the case more than I have, so I'll take your word on the details of it. My point still stands:

He's American, in America, and he has every right to sue.

Some of us will agree with him, others will disagree; but it's up for the court to decide whether he has grounds or not. All losing this case will prove is that he didn't have enough compelling evidence to swing the case in his favor. That's all.

I find this funny because underneath it all, people use their skin color to get money all the time. They also use other things, like name and reputation, good looks, you name it. That's how this society works. So when I see this case, I really have nothing to get bent out of shape over because I know that it happens on all levels of society.

 

[Wade1]

At no point and time did "the whole argument" depend or revolve around what some anonymous callers on some radio show said. If thats what you're "infering", then that also strikes me as "naive."

Zoicks! Easy on the scare quotes, man!

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

i have a question : why do you say African-Americans instead of Americans ?

Because Wade addressed them as African-Americans as well as most other people. Some people simply say black/white/asian because its quicker and easier without getting technical. Thats what pretty much what everyone does. I don't really agree with it either, but its just the way its been for so long that its how black people are refered to. You cannot exactly call them africans because they're not, but calling them african dash american is like categorizing them, which isn't too bias since its done for everybody else too. Its been the same way with native-americans. Instead of just calling them americans, we refer to the fact they were here first. Its better than calling them indians though, since thats obviously incorrect, both ethnically, technically, and historically.

Technically, in America, this is how it's been. If blacks had a problem with it (many do), they'd petition to have it changed in legal documentations, surveys, etc. But, for a long time now, it has been African-American. Some blacks are proud of the distinction and others are not. There was a time they were refered to as afro-americans, but unless someone is trying to be funny, its rarely used, either by whites or blacks themselves.

Its like how whites are refered to as caucacians rather than anglo-saxons (which is one branch of what they technically are by type, origin, and bloodline). Because people aren't going to go around refering to someone as an anglo-saxon, that person is simply white for simplicity's sake.

Documentation wants to be as concise as possible, without getting complicated, so thats why we've got it shortened to white, black, asian, latino, pacific islander, "other", etc. It may seem insensitive, but its this way for practical reasons.

I don't know how it is in your country, but thats the way it is here.