Medjugorje messages from Dec 25, 2001

[qjakal]

Topic "A"

Can we perhaps discuss the Church's stance on women as being "unworthy" of priesthood, or is it "unable", I always get those bigoted ridiculous statements and philosophies mixed up. I've never had an intelligent coherent discussion with any member of the Church Hierarchy that didn't boil down to "because" when it comes to this ,IMO, major issue. Q

 

[TicklingDuo]

Can we perhaps discuss the Church's stance on women as being "unworthy" of priesthood, or is it "unable", I always get those bigoted ridiculous statements and philosophies mixed up. I've never had an intelligent coherent discussion with any member of the Church Hierarchy that didn't boil down to "because" when it comes to this ,IMO, major issue. Q

Q - The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that, had Jesus intended for women to be involved in priestly ministry, he'd have included several of those who were faithful to him during his life and ministry. Since he did not, the assumption is that this was not something that he intended.

For the sake of arguement, let me backtrack a bit. Every official teaching of the Church is based on Scripture (some mixed with tradition). Though other Christians and non-Christians may disagree with us on our understanding of Scripture, our faith IS, in fact, Scripture based and focused on Jesus as our Savior.

There are many even within the hierarchy who disagree with women not being included in priesthood. While I, myself have yet to understand the Lord's reason for this, I DO believe that he would have included women if he had meant for us to be included. Many argue that his not doing so was based upon the culture and tradition in which he lived. However, if you look at his life and ministry as aqa whole, it's easy to understand that he did NOT go along with the conventional opinions and teachings if they were wrong.

That having been said, the notion that the Church officially teaches in any way that women are less than worthy is incorrect...and often based on the hurt that comes from lack of understanding. The Church lifts women up as noble and worthy of respect, as a necessary support and influence upon others...not only men as individuals, but upon society as a whole.

A complete and thorough examination of the Church's teaching would likely be more involved than what we should get into here. However, I have studied in depth these teachings and am more than willing to answer any questions and clarify any misunderstandings...with NO intent to be arguementative or judgemental, because I have no right to be either.

Ann
PS - Anyone who reads this post will note that I've placed the word "official" in bold print. Anything I will share is based upon the official teaching of the Church and not on my own opinion or that of others. There are even those among the clergy who teach things contrary to actual Church teaching. This is a sad result of the fact that the Church, though a divine institution is made up of humans who are less than perfect.

 

[Krokus]

Ok

Dave, I see your point. I have what you would call a "Short Fuse".....I guess I need to work on that. 😎

 

[omega]

It's because Henry Ford was anti-union

The point I was making was not that I blamed god but rather that you can make or interpret gods word to fit your own ends as the hijackers did and as people have done for centuries.

The Koran and the bible are both open to this kind of use, you can use them to justify almost anything you do. They are full of plain straight forward contradictions.

I think that tomorrow I will get out the owners manual for my '89 Ford Taurus and see if I can interpret it in such a way as to blame Henry for Sept. 11.

Why is it that Holy Books are open to interpretation but car owner manuals are not? (or are they?)

 

[TicklingDuo]

Why is it that Holy Books are open to interpretation but car owner manuals are not? (or are they?)

Actually, these books are not open for interpretation. But, as humans trying to understand it or twist it's meaning to defend some idea, we do it all the time. I've studied Scripture for several years and can explain what many passages are talking about. But, I can't quote chapter and verse like many others can. My brother, on the other hand, can quote Scriptures upside down, inside out, backwards, forwards...any way you want. The problem is that he uses those Scriptures out of context in an effort to defend his prejudices and hatred of anyone not like himself. He's not alone in doing this either.

That bastardization of the Bible, along with those who do the same with the Koran, is a slap in the face to God and every believer who strives to live according to his word.

Ann

 

[red indian]

Blimey!

I think you answered your own question there Omega! but I am not sure your analogy was a good one but maybe "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintainance" may have something to tell us!

 

[evilqueen]

Does the Ford Taurus owner's manual contain passages describing how Henry Ford smote his enemies? Does it relate the apocryphal visions of his board of directors?

There is no room for interpretation in a manual. Everything within it can be taken literally - should be taken literally. There are no proverbs, no parables, no prophecies.

I once heard a preacher describe the Bible as a flight manual, and all good preachers as pilots. He decried 'false pilots' who didn't know how to read the manual. It's a scary analogy if you're in the cabin of the plane. Myself, I fly a different airline.

evilqueen

 

[Strelnikov]

Actually, Henry Ford had an employee named Henry Clay Frick to smite his enemies, mainly members of the United Auto Workers. There's a series of photos from around 1936 showing Frick and his crew beating the crap out of the Reuther brothers with baseball bats - they knew their trade, all right.

For those interested, it isn't necessary to go to Former Yugo for the Mejugorje experience. Ms. Lunetti, who saw the vision there, visited Birmingham Alabama in the early 1980's to donate a kidney to her brother (the U of A Medical Center is here.) While she was here, the Blessed Virgin appeared to her in a Shelby County bean field. The site has turned into a franchise operation complete with Christian tourist traps etc. and does a pretty good business. Ms. Lunetti visited again around Christmas time this past year. It's called Caritas - phone number is in the Birmingham Metro phone directory if anyone is interested, or dial Long Distance Information for Area Code 205.

Strelnikov

 

[TicklingDuo]

I agree with Strel on not having to go to Medjugorje to experience our lady and her message. No apparition/locution is necessary, in fact. All we need to do is follow her call...which is to live our lives as her Son has already requested. How do we experience this. Follow his call in Scripture and we're further ahead than anyone (myself included) who goes on pilgrimage and then forgets the point.

Ann

 

[omega]

question for the Catholics

I agree with Strel on not having to go to Medjugorje to experience our lady and her message. No apparition/locution is necessary, in fact. All we need to do is follow her call...which is to live our lives as her Son has already requested. How do we experience this. Follow his call in Scripture and we're further ahead than anyone (myself included) who goes on pilgrimage and then forgets the point.

Ann and Strel (and Scott and anyone else who gives a flying leap),

I have been in conversation with an acquantance who is Catholic and he has given me some great info on the Catholic faith and teaching. I know that the Catholic church teaching is based on the idea that God's truth is revealed through the Scriptures and Tradition and the Magistrium (which is the teaching and interpreting authority of the church).

My question would be: Why are so many of the appearances of Mary and other Saints happening to people not officially part of the church hierarchy? I mean, if the Pope is the infallible Vicar of Christ on Earth why don't all of these appearances happen to him?

 

[omega]

Does the Ford Taurus owner's manual contain passages describing how Henry Ford smote his enemies? Does it relate the apocryphal visions of his board of directors?

There is no room for interpretation in a manual. Everything within it can be taken literally - should be taken literally. There are no proverbs, no parables, no prophecies.

I once heard a preacher describe the Bible as a flight manual, and all good preachers as pilots. He decried 'false pilots' who didn't know how to read the manual. It's a scary analogy if you're in the cabin of the plane. Myself, I fly a different airline.

I read about one time when a machine broke down in one of Ford's plants. None of Henry's employees could figure out what was wrong with the machine, so an expert repairman was called in. The repairman went to the machine, tinkered around for about five minutes, started the machine and it worked perfectly. He then pulled out his statement pad, wrote for a bit then handed the bill to Henry Ford. Henry looked at it and said, "One Thousand Dollars for a little tinkering?" The repairman said, "You're right, that is high." So he took the bill and rewrote it. When he gave it back to Henry it said, "$10.00 for a little tinkering, $990.00 for knowing where to tinker."

The thing with the Bible is that it should be taken literally. When there are absolute statements of fact they should be taken literally as fact. When there are proverbs they should be taken literally as proverbs, when there are parables they should be taken literally as parables, where there is word imagery it should be taken literally as word imagery, when there is poetry it should be taken literally as poetry.

 

[qjakal]

Sigh....

Genesis:

Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:7-8
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

Exodus:

God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20

God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men."

Leviticus:

God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 22:12-14, 18

Numbers:

God displays his hospitality with the admonition: "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death." 1:51

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. 15:32-36

Because of a dispute between Korah and Moses, God has the ground open up and swallow Korah and his family. And then, just for the hell of it, God has a fire burn 250 men (friends of Korah?) to death. 16:20-49
After God killed Korah, his family, and 250 innocent bystanders, the people complained saying, "ye have killed the people of the Lord." So God, who doesn't take kindly to criticism, sends a plague on the people. And "they that died in the plague were 14,700." 16:41-50


Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- (31:28-29)] 31:1-54 28-29

Deuteronomy:


Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Dt.13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Dt.17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Dt.17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Dt.18:20
Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God "delivers into your hands," but keep the women for yourself. Dt.20:13-15
Kill everything that breathes in the cities that God gives you for an inheritance. Dt.20:16
Kill rebellious or disobedient sons. Dt.21:18-21


The list goes on and on and on...Samuel, Kings, Joshua...filled with smiting and hacking and sacrificing and strange rituals...

I have to disagree with using a literal view of these things Omega. The world is too small and our weapons have grown too mighty for this type of behavior. Q

 

[TicklingDuo]

Re: question for the Catholics

Ann and Strel (and Scott and anyone else who gives a flying leap),

My question would be: Why are so many of the appearances of Mary and other Saints happening to people not officially part of the church hierarchy? I mean, if the Pope is the infallible Vicar of Christ on Earth why don't all of these appearances happen to him?

Both are very good and commonly misunderstood questions. The answers are a bit involved. But, I'll try to keep it short. 😉

First of all, lets make sure that we understand the idea of infallability properly. Because of the fact that our hierarchy is made up of human beings like the rest of us, this is a gift of God to protect the Truth of His Word. It applies ONLY to ex cathedra teachings...teachings from the chair of authority which are official and binding. It is simply an intervention by the Holy Spirit that keeps the pope from teaching error.

That having been clarified... When Our Lady (or anyone else) appears to someone, it is to use them to spread a message of conversion...a call to a deeper relationship with Christ. Normally, the chosen messenger is a simple person...often a child. This is largely because of the innocence that allows them to share the message without involving their own thoughts/feelings in a way that would change the message. Those of authority in the Church are listened to little enough at times and would likely be accused of creating the story to attract attention and get people to follow what they already say. Presenting the message through innocent children allows people to be more receptive/less suspicious.

While several reports of apparitions have been sanctioned as valid by the Church, others have not. Every reported occurrence is thoroughly investigated and checked for authenticity...the rule by which it's measured being Scripture and teaching already accepted. Even the events in Medjugorje have yet to be officially sanctioned. This is because of the fact that the events are still ongoing. The Church always keeps the investigation open until it makes a final determination...either that it is valid once they are over or that they are not valid at any point along the way. The reason for this being left open is that they can (and have on occassion) begun with messages that appear valid and later turn to invalid messages that are contrary to Scripture/official teachings.

OK....I'm already longer than planned. I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction. If not, just give a yell.

Ann

 

[ReturntoGod]

RE

Omega wrote:

<b>"Ann and Strel (and Scott and anyone else who gives a flying leap),

I have been in conversation with an acquantance who is Catholic and he has given me some great info on the Catholic faith and teaching. I know that the Catholic church teaching is based on the idea that God's truth is revealed through the Scriptures and Tradition and the Magistrium (which is the teaching and interpreting authority of the church).

My question would be: Why are so many of the appearances of Mary and other Saints happening to people not officially part of the church hierarchy? I mean, if the Pope is the infallible Vicar of Christ on Earth why don't all of these appearances happen to him?"</b>

Great question Omega and I'm glad you asked it. I don't know about the apparitions of saints. I haven't heard of that in our time, but I haven't read everything either 🙂 As far as our Blessed Mother's apparitions, Fatima and Lourdes have been approved by the Catholic Church.

As far as Medjugorje is concerned, it is important to understand how the Catholic Church officialy designates an apparition or series of apparitions as 'of Divine means'. As with Fatima and Lourdes, it is the custom of the Catholic Church to wait until such occurences have ended and then to launch a fiersome investigation as to it's validity. That has been done in Lourdes and Fatima and both were proclaimed by the Catholic Church as 'of Divine means'. The problem with Medjugorje is that it has not ceased. It started in 1981 and continues to this day. Therefore, because there has been no finite ending, the Catholic Church cannot, and will not make a ruling. We are in the same position as we would be during the middle of the Fatima apparitions. The Church made no official declaration because the apparitions were ongoing. The Church will make an official ruling on the apparitions of Medjugorje when, and if, they end.

However, Pope John Paul II has stated that "if he were not Pope he would be in Medjugorje."

Another point to consider is one of Our Lady's messages from Medjugorje, bearing on this point, she states that this is the last time she will appear on earth because after this time "she will not need to appear again."

Take this statement as you will, but it may very well be that the Church will not have time to make a ruling on Medjugorje. If this is the last time the Blessed Mother is appearing on earth (because she won't need to again) there is an implication that something is going to happen which will nullify the need of her intervention on earth.

I have my own thoughts on this as I'm sure you'll all reach yours. But as to the Catholic Church's ruling on Marian apparitions, it has ruled on Fatima and Lourdes, but it cannot yet rule on Medjugorje because it is ongoing.

Peace,
Scott

P.S. I'm sorry Omega, I just happened onto your question of <b>"if the Pope is the infallible Vicar of Christ on Earth why don't all of these appearances happen to him?"</b>

I'm afraid I read your opening remarks and immediately responded. Sorry about that. I'll give you my own thoughts and opinions on why the blessed mother chooses unknowns rather than the leader of our faith. However these are just my opinions and thoughts. They are not Catholic teaching:

I'll give you this analogy. There is a very wealthy man who happens to be the leading authority on alien history. This man claims that aliens once visited the earth and implanted it's creatures with advanced DNA. This man is scrutinized, his every word is interpreted over and over by experts. So the aliens come to this man on occasion and give them messages for the world. Yet, he is the authorative voice on this subject. His opinion is well known. The aliens see that because this man is watched over and scrutinized so closely that people no longer listen to him. So instead they pick out an uneducated farmhand out in the middle of nowhere and they deliver thier message to him. He tells the world. Now people are astounded. Who is this uneducated pilgrim who speaks this way? Where did he learn such terms? What is his motive?

Now people are listening, because the message didn't come from the person eveyone expected it to come from. Instead it came from the last person everyone expected.

Such is the case with Marian apparitions. The Blessed Mother comes to those we least likely expect. If the Blessed Mother came to the Pope and gave him message, if she revealed herself in apparitions and the Pope made declarations concerning the statements, few would listen. All would say, "well what would we expect the Pope to say. Of course the Blessed Virgin Mary is an integral part of the Catholic Church. Of course he's going to tell us about some supposed apparitions"

But because these apparitions occur to unexpected people, in totally unexpected places, we do a double check. This is, in my opinion, why the Blessed Mother doesn't deliver her messages directly to the Holy Father.

However, I do believe that the Holy Father is in some kind of contact with the Blessed Mother. When the Pope was shot by an assassin a few years back he cried out, as he was falling, "Mary my mother!"

After he had recuperated he went directly to Fatima and placed the bullet, which nearly killed him, on the crown of Our Lady of Fatima.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Scott

 

[TicklingDuo]

However, I do believe that the Holy Father is in some kind of contact with the Blessed Mother. When the Pope was shot by an assassin a few years back he cried out, as he was falling, "Mary my mother!"

After he had recuperated he went directly to Fatima and placed the bullet, which nearly killed him, on the crown of Our Lady of Fatima.
[/B]

Scott...

You are quite right. There have long been reports of the present pope having locutions on a regular basis. (For those who don't know, a locution is an inner voice that comes from a spirit.) Even before he was elected and consecrated as Pope, he had been told that there would be an attempt on his life but that Our Lady would protect him. In addition to thanking her, he also went to the Shrine to St. Michael the Archangel, near Padre Pio's home parish. He had been told by Padre Pio before having been consecrated as bishop that he would one day be pope and that Our Lady and St. Michael would be his special protectors.

John Paul has always had a special devotion to Our Lady. He prayed the rosary daily with his father as a child and teenager. After the war began and his father died, he was introduced to a rosary group in his hometown that was led by a groupd of Secular Carmelites...a group he joined before moviing on to search for the Lord's will in his life by entering the seminary. Even his training was done underground due to the Nazi's attempted suppression of the Church. He and his fellow students would have been shot or sent to concentration camps had they been discovered.

He was also a part of the underground that hid and snuck out Polish Jews. He was involved in peaceful protests during his seminary days and was an outspoken critic of the Nazis once ordained. His life was even threatened for taking back consecrated land meant for a church that the nazis had confiscated. While in the seminary and after his ordination, he studied many of the communist writers in an attempt to understand their point of view and in order to help others resist the temptation to follow it. All of this, he has said, was done according to the will of God and under the protection/patronage of Our Lady and St. Michael.

Ann

 

[qjakal]

Pope goes the ....

Hey, okay, we all agree the Pope is a heckuva guy! Now, how can this translate down to the organization he heads and benefit mankind? Can he decree that churches and their trappings should be of reasonable, moderate size and expense, and the money that would have been used for ornamentation be spent on new programs for education and aid? He COULD, but I'm not sure how long he'd remain in charge....and this seems to me to be a "fatal" flaw in an organization presumably dedicated to enriching the world and its inhabitants spiritual lives.

Ann, I agree with the principles and true meaning of what you have stated on this thread, and I know you are sincere in both your beliefs and desire for the Churches role in the world, but I truly state that I despair of organized religion in its current form and ideology...it disgusts me with the potential it wastes and the power it misuses. Scott and I have gone around on this a bit in the past, but when you utilize blind faith as your basis for the discussion, it leads to a dead end each time. My issues with God(in whatever form) are a separate matter apart from the organizations that "represent" the will of this omnipotent force.....the abovementioned example of the "waste" of revenue is but one of many flaws that have grown within the structure of the Church, both in a ideological and practical sense. Reform is way overdue, and even a monolithic group such as this isn't immune to the forces of time and evolution....sometimes change IS good. Q

 

[omega]

Catholic inconsistancy

I appreciate the responses about the appearances of Mary. Thanks.

Scott...

You are quite right. There have long been reports of the present pope having locutions on a regular basis. (For those who don't know, a locution is an inner voice that comes from a spirit.) Even before he was elected and consecrated as Pope, he had been told that there would be an attempt on his life but that Our Lady would protect him. In addition to thanking her, he also went to the Shrine to St. Michael the Archangel, near Padre Pio's home parish. He had been told by Padre Pio before having been consecrated as bishop that he would one day be pope and that Our Lady and St. Michael would be his special protectors.

However, you have brought up one of my biggest confusions about the Catholic faith. You say that you do not worship Mary, you only honor her. Yet, her you are giving Mary the role of divine protector of the Pope. And I quote from the website of the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary. "A world-wide movement of prayer entrusted to the Dominican Order by the Holy See more than 500 years ago."

There is a section on the site where there are "Fifteen promises of the Blessed Virgin to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary."

Promise 1 reads, "To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces."

These would seem to me to be pergotives of God alone.

Promise 5 reads, "Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish."

The Bible clearly states that we should trust ourselves only to God through Jesus and Jesus said that whosoever believes in HIM will not perish. The Catholic Church seems to give many such divine powers to Mary. In the description of the Rosary and its benefits I can find all kinds of evidence that Catholics are indeed worshipping Mary.

 

[TicklingDuo]

Q...I agree with you wholeheartedly. The Church (as a whole, not just the hierarchy) has been shamefully negligent in much of what it has been called to do. There are little pockets of reform here and there...including some initiated by this pope. But, we have been, and continue to be, very lax in many areas.

You brought up the specific issue of ornamentation of churches. This is a two-part problem. One is that many of the older church buildings (in the states) were built with the donations of immigrants who saw that as the more important use of funds...often allowing their own families to suffer in order to do so. Another, more universal problem is that people have seen buildings, statues, etc. as a necessary part of their faith. While they do enhance the surroundings, they have no direct baring on whether a person believes or not and are, in that respect, a waste. IMHO, funds should go to those who need it and to better training of those who preach (or in many cases DON'T preach) the faith...with the emphasis being to relieve the needs of many in the world.

I always remember the quote of the man who asked Gandhi why (since so much of what he lived was what we as Christians proclaim to be right) he did not become a Christian. His answer(paraphrased)...I would, but I've known too many Christians. Unfortunately, though the Church gives billions to those in need, we are the worst offenders. We are also the cheap ones in giving in our collections. Most other Christians tithe (or come close to it). We Catholics (as a whole) don't even tithe from what's left over. When I was in charge of counting collections, there was a disturbing pattern. The elderly and needy who had little to keep themselves going invariably gave more than those who had an abundance. What it comes down to is that we need to change, not only in the hierarchy but also in the grass roots. But, that requires a more fervent faith and a snse of belonging which most Catholic parishes are sadly lacking in.

That having been said, and in no way to excuse our shortfallings, I must also state that the same deficiencies apply in society as a whole. While I love the freedom of being an American, we as a country are just as shameful in our lack of help to those in need. While so many in the world (including right here at home) go to bed hungry on a regular basis, we as a country waste more than any other nation.

The bottom line...finally getting to your question...of how to translate this down to the body. I wish I knew! While there are movements that do a good job in their own areas, the majority of people don't want to hear it. So much for us living our faith, huh? I've been guilty of it myself. So, I can't judge anyone else. But, there really needs to be a conversion of hearts. I don't mean that in the religious sense, but in a moral/societal sense...a CHANGE of hearts that brings us to see that there are people in need and we CAN respond. Sept. 11th showed that we're capable of responding. Now all we have to do is keep doing it.

Ann

 

[TicklingDuo]

Re: Catholic inconsistancy

I appreciate the responses about the appearances of Mary. Thanks.

However, you have brought up one of my biggest confusions about the Catholic faith. You say that you do not worship Mary, you only honor her. Yet, her you are giving Mary the role of divine protector of the Pope. And I quote from the website of the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary. "A world-wide movement of prayer entrusted to the Dominican Order by the Holy See more than 500 years ago."

There is a section on the site where there are "Fifteen promises of the Blessed Virgin to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary."

Promise 1 reads, "To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces."

These would seem to me to be pergotives of God alone.

Promise 5 reads, "Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish."

The Bible clearly states that we should trust ourselves only to God through Jesus and Jesus said that whosoever believes in HIM will not perish. The Catholic Church seems to give many such divine powers to Mary. In the description of the Rosary and its benefits I can find all kinds of evidence that Catholics are indeed worshipping Mary.

I appreciate the responses about the appearances of Mary. Thanks.

However, you have brought up one of my biggest confusions about the Catholic faith. You say that you do not worship Mary, you only honor her. Yet, here you are giving Mary the role of divine protector of the Pope. And I quote from the website of the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary. "A world-wide movement of prayer entrusted to the Dominican Order by the Holy See more than 500 years ago."

There is a section on the site where there are "Fifteen promises of the Blessed Virgin to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary."

Promise 1 reads, "To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces."

These would seem to me to be pergotives of God alone.

Promise 5 reads, "Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish."

The Bible clearly states that we should trust ourselves only to God through Jesus and Jesus said that whosoever believes in HIM will not perish. The Catholic Church seems to give many such divine powers to Mary. In the description of the Rosary and its benefits I can find all kinds of evidence that Catholics are indeed worshipping Mary.

Omega...Your confusion is a common and understandable one, struggled with by many (even in the Church).

First, let me clarify something. The fact that Our Lady intercedes for us/protects us does not mean that she is divine or worshipped. She can be seen as a babysitter assisting parents in their role of protector of a child. While God is never absent, He can shoose to use others to aid us. Another analogy is that of the mother of a best friend (which Jesus is). In human relationships, we often come to see that mother as almost our own...a surrogate mother so to speak. When we feel unable to go directly to that friend for some reason, we tend to go to their mother to ask for her help. THAT is how we view Our Lady.

Your point about some of the quotes/promises is a valid one. It DOES make it sound like we're going to her instead of to Jesus. In fact, what we are doing is going to Jesus through her in some cases. We do believe that salvation is only in/through Jesus. So, I suppose that it is a little thing in the big picture to use any means possible to get to Him. As far as the rosary is concerned...the reason for it's importance is that it focuses solely on the mysteries of Jesus life, ministry and teaching. While some of the mysteries do involve Our Lady, it is to show the reward that JESUS gives to the faithful... what awaits us if we are true to Him.

Our Lady in no way takes on divine prerogatives to herself. Nor does the Church asign them to her. Rather, she simply prays for us and trusts in Jesus own words that "Whatever you ask the Father in my Name, it will be given to you." Because she is with Him and out of the distractions of the flesh, she is much more able to pray for us than we are to pray for one another. I suppose the easiest way to put it would be to ask a question. If you were seriously ill, would you go and tell the butcher about it or would you see a doctor? In most cases you would go to the one able to understand, diagnose and hopefully cure the problem. Those of us in the world are the butcher. Jesus is the divine physician. Our Lady is the nurse in the doctor's office helping us to get ready for him to come in and check us over.

I hope this helps put things into perspective a bit. It's a lot to understand...especially when not seen in the proper context.
😉

Ann

 

[qjakal]

Someday....

Your response was a calm measured reply to my little rant, Ann, and I thank you for your thoughtful tone and soft words. In general I am a fairly easygoing creature, but the abuses I see happening in organized religions throughout the world tend to get my hackles up and my temper short. The finer points of praying to and through or over and above certain manifestations of Church theology are interesting enough in their own way, but meaningless to me given their place in the context of the "whole". Individuals mean well...groups mean well....entire congregations mean well, indeed perhaps even entire sects mean well....and yet, the behavior continues in their organizations as a whole, unchanged for millenia. Scandals surface and rock the community, but sink all too quickly beneath the wave of apathy and half hearted cries for reform. Individuals are shunned and exposed for a variety of reasons, most having to do with being mortal fallible men and women who have succumbed to lust or greed or one of the many temptations of our lives. Why then doesn't the public "see" the organizations flaws and demand more in terms of standards and performance? What better place to start demanding better behavior and actually enforcing the tenets being preached? And when the ideals aren't reached, can't we make the judgement and the distinction between a normal flawed human who tried hard but couldn't quite get the job done, and the Jimmy and Tammy Bakers of the world? If everyone stood up and announced in their place of worship "NO>..this isn't the way it will be!!" and then had the moral strength to actually turn their back on the dysfunctional unit they formerly worshipped within, you'd see the kind of meaningful action that might allow the Church to begin to fulfill its promise of glory. The political, financial and emotional might of the Church is a huge giant....one that currently isn't even on its feet, much less bestriding the world as the Colossus it might have been....sad days, and the evil times may yet come, Ms Ann, if everyone continues to dwell in their pews, allowing the erosion of ideals that are greater than the guardians that espouse their sanctity.
"It is easier to fight for one's principles
than to live up to them."
-- Alfred Adler

Hence, wars with religous fervor throughout the history of man....we've learned nothing. Q

 

[TicklingDuo]

Q...I totally agreewith you except for one point. It is often easier to accomplish change when fighting from the inside thatn from the outside. Each must make their own choice based upon their own personal belief. Mine is to fight from within. Yours appears to be to do so from the outside. Hopefully, neither of us will leave this world without changing at least one heart!

Peace!
Ann

PS - If you (or anyone else) would like to get more involved in this of the forum, I'm more than willing to do so. Just drop me a note at [email protected]

 

[omega]

Re: Sigh....

Double Sigh for Q,

What you have listed is the recording of historical events. They should be taken literally as historical events. They are not commandments to believers today that all this same killing must happen.

As for the animal sacrifices, that also is a mute point today. For the Jews the sacrifices can't take place because the temple is not standing. For Christians the sacrifices will never again be necessary because of the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

See, I can take the Bible literally without condoning the killing of humans and/or animals today.

Great discussion on the selfishness and abuse of power in the church. Just a reminder that the Protestant Reformation and the resultant Counter-Reformation were all fights to clean up what was wrong in the church. Unfortunately we protestants can fall into the same trap of selfishness/abuse after centuries of existance.

I don't know if this is abuse in the church but a few years ago the editor of our denominational newsletter reprinted an article that had been in the newsletter some fifty years ago. It called for a "mandatory free-will offering" Well at least it may be an abuse of the English language.

 

[TicklingDuo]

Great discussion on the selfishness and abuse of power in the church. Just a reminder that the Protestant Reformation and the resultant Counter-Reformation were all fights to clean up what was wrong in the church. Unfortunately we protestants can fall into the same trap of selfishness/abuse after centuries of existance.

Omega...you are correct about the initial intent of the reformation. It was the same as the Franciscan movement, though they went about it in very different ways. Both Martin Luther and St. Francis were condemned by many of the more political minded in the hierarchy at the time. Their offense...daring us to put aside materialism and pride and live what the Lord had called us to. They didn't listen much less then than they do today.

If firmly believe that, if each of us as individuals begins to change, it will work it's way up much more quickly than if we sit around demanding change from the hierarchy and waiting for it to trickle down. A certain degree of righteous anger is justified. But, in the end, it is each individual who must change.

Ann

 

[qjakal]

Mandatory free will...lol

Thanks omega...needed that. I'll add it my list of things that can make me smile in time of need! Yes, I know I smacked him with a historical litany, but I went easy on him...literalists are at the mercy of the book they embrace, and there's a ton more troublesome incidents in there. As you say, perhaps placed in context they have some level of reason, but it's still an impressive list of violence and weirdness by any standards.

Ms Ann, you are a sweet soul, but do me a favor and get rid of those "teen sluts" banners and such at your gateway...lol. Perhaps something a bit less....sigh...something. Not running a site myself, I should keep my nose out of the "business" end, but isn't there any other sponsors around besides these porn ones? I'm walking the hypocritical line here a bit myself, since obviously I looked..lol. Anyway, inside the organization or outside, the view is still troubled and unsettling. Perhaps we can recruit another few hundred and become the first online congregation (or would we be?)....need a cool name though. Monitorism? Virtualists? We can work on it.... Q

 

[TicklingDuo]

Q...now it's your turn to make me smile. 😉

Something a bit less...sigh...something.

Vulgar??? AFA the banners on the site go, they are required by the host. The other option would have been to have what they claim to be only 2% of the hits on the site transfered TO those sites listed in the banners. In reality, they transfer much more than that...and even do it on occassion with my having chosen the banner option.

I know it's a nuisance and don't like it myself. But, until I either find a host that serves adult sites for free and works at least as well, that's something we have to put up with. If anyone has a million dollars to spare and is willing to pass it my way, I'll drop them and pay for my own space with NO banners at all. 😀

Perhaps we can recruit another few hundred and become the first online congregation (or would we be?)....

Actually, I don't think we could claim #1...or even #100. There are a ton of congregations online...some in addition to being outside and others entirely online. Go figure!

Ann