Medjugorje messages from Dec 25, 2001

[qjakal]

Hmmm...

Business is one of the few things in life I DO understand, actually. It's a shame we're classified in the same "adult" category as them, although I guess it's all a matter of opinion, and until I'm ready to pony up the dollars, I'll kindly keep mine to myself! There...I did it for you, since you were too polite...lol! Don't be letting people tell you how to run your website Ann!😛 You have a great deal of patience, and I shall stop trying it, I promise...besides with dvnc and Strel, as well as the combustible red indian around to needle, why would I mess with a NICE person...lol?

I'll make you a deal though...I'm working with a group of online game designers for a Xmas 2002 (we hope) release. If it comes off as well as I hope, I should have a mess of server space out there in CA to utilize pretty much as I see fit, being a part owner of the company. When the time is right, I'll supply the space, with maintenance and all the perks, you switch off the porno kings banners, ok? That will be my good deed for that month, and I'll go to heaven for sure...lol. Q

 

[omega]

Re: Hmmm...

I remember a few years ago there was some special TV movie or mini-series on Noah. I didn't watch it all but I saw one scene where one of Noah's sons is talking to a woman. She asks if he and his family believe in free will. He replies, "Yes, of course, we have to." I often wonder how many people get it.

That will be my good deed for that month, and I'll go to heaven for sure...lol. Q

I suppose I could use this to bring up the whole Catholic indulgences issue. But I don't feel like indulging myself in that issue. 🙄

 

[Slappy McGee]

wow

I just took about an hour (or did it just seem that long) and read this thread from start to finish..... I want to thank everyone for contributing to it with such lengthy posts. It was interesting reading, and I'd like to think I learned a little of something from it, at least.

As for my opinions.... As always I have lots, and I have had lots of issues with organized religion for many of the same reasons that Q brings issue, however, I do believe in a spiritual higher power, especially recently after some happenings which I consider having to do with something bigger than myself (how vague can I be).....

however. I think that any religion is nothing more than people trying to explain something that is way bigger than them.... and my opinion is that no organized religion can or will dictate what can be learned of god and goodness simply by looking into one's own heart.....

I have studied a lot of psychology, and there are many great theories and theorists who have offered insight into the mind and the personality...... most come from very different points of view, and many of the theorists completely disagree with one another......however, studies have shown that almost all of the theories have around the same success rate (there are some exceptions) when working with a client or a patient...... why??

My guess is that each of them has found a different way to explain the same things, each using different terms, and different techniques that are fundamentally based around the same larger ideas. They are different paths toward the same destination, if you will. Howebver, the mind is a thing that is hard to grasp, and no theory has truly grasped all there is to know about it, and likely none ever will....

to me, the different religions of the world are just like the different psychological theories.... they are different paths to the same destination, and whatever glimpses of god mortals truly have been given, they have turned it into a set of rules and a set of guidelines and tried to package it in so many different ways that it makes me sick. Organized religion will never be anything short of political.... and therefor it will be corrupt.

I cannot understand why people are not content to know god in whatever form they believe it in the privacy of their own home, alone, and personal.... I feel I have an innate sense of good and bad, wright and wrong, etc. etc, etc... and I never have , nor never will feel a need to bend my feelings of divinity to meet a prepackaged version of it with a name somewhere that some guy made up because he wanted everything neat and tidy for us, like Christianity, Catholicism, Muslim, Jewish, whatever....

to me, just like psychological theories, religions are vague, somewhat successfull attempts of human beings to explain the unexplainable so that people don't have to think to long and hard about it on their own....they are surely somewaht on the mark, because if not why would there be so much similarities between them all.... however, I will choose the bits and pieces of each faith that make sense to me in my heart, and follow them on my own.... Just like most good psychologists today do with all of these theories we are taught....

Think about it.... the entire idea that you can be born into a belief system is ludicrous.... is it by luck alone that I am in a christian society, so I have a better chance of getting to heaven?? are people born in 3rd world countries just SOL?

I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they choose, but I also encourage people to challenge their opinions about god, and look around and see what makes sense to them, don't just believe what your mommy and daddy told you to believe as a child when it comes to god.....make it personal, make it your own decision.... actually think about it

OK, I ended up going off an a pretty big rant there, thats why I usually avoid threads like this 😉

I hope I did not offend anyone with this post, it is not my intent. I'm just expressing my opinions.

thanks for reading.

 

[TicklingDuo]

not offended at all...

Slappy...I found your post interesting and very familiar. You see, I was not always a practicing Catholic (though I was born and baptized into the faith). When I got to high school and attended a public school for the first time, my faith was challenged left and right. I'd never questioned it before. That began a long look at the various faiths and a serious look inside to see what I really believed. I was a rebel at the time as well. SO, I didn't take the fact that I'd grown up in the church as an important element. After 3 years of intensive searching (which is a constant search still) I found that the Catholic Church came the closest to what I truly believe deep down inside. That is why, after having been hurt by some in the church, I chose to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I stayed because I enjoy sharing my faith and prayer with others as much as I enjoy celebrating it alone. However, I know that's not for everyone.

I can easily understand the point you're making. I had a dream once where I was on a road to heaven. As I looked around, I saw that there were many other roads as well. As I moved along, I could see that there were peaks and valleys in each road...mine included. In the end, they all ended up in the same place. And NONE of us was able to see everything around us or understand why those roads crossed in some places only to split again. It was a revelation to me of our common spiritual journeys. No matter how we see it or persue it, we're all on our own road to the same destination.

Ann

 

[qjakal]

Cult Leader!

We need a TK Cult. I shall begin the search at once for a spiritual leader to guide us upon our journey to tickle nirvana! The qualifications will be extremely vague (heck, they might even shift day to day), the responsibilities nearly nonexistent, and the level of involvement minimal indeed! I'm thinking red indian, but he may be a bit too....direct. We're looking for someone so subtle that THEY don't even realize they're the putative head of our disembodied disenfranchised neo organization of pseudo mumbo jumbo litany! If you don't hear from me, it may be that you have assumed the position....try not to notice or its out ya go! Q

PS--Slappy...psst..over here...yeah, here! Okay, you go East, I'll slide West...meet you in the middle...bring candidates!

 

[Slappy McGee]

Q

that would require far more effort than I am willing to give.....

but good luck with that 🙂

 

[TicklingDuo]

picking up Slappy's dropped ball....

That's OK Q. I'll go east. It will work out better that way. Having a woman in the process will keep all the feminazis from crying foul. 😉

Ann

 

[drew70]

Red Indian, you're comments are a glaring contradiction. First you say:

"Can you tell me what god was doing on 11/sept/01? a spot of early christmas shopping do you think? no one on the "Bridge" that day? gross dereliction of duty I would say."

This sure sounds like blame to me, especially the "gross dereliction" part. But then when nobody agrees with this point of view, you come up with:

"The point I was making was not that I blamed god but rather that you can make or interpret gods word to fit your own ends as the hijackers did and as people have done for centuries."

I'm just wondering if you got whiplash from this radically abrupt U-turn.

 

[omega]

Do all roads lead to Rome? or did Rome burn in a day?

I live in a small (really very tiny) village. We have exactly three streets from the main highway into the village. Now you could say that you believe there are five or ten or twenty or even thousands of streets leading to the village. But the fact remains there are only three.

 

[qjakal]

Q

What if you walked in from a direction that wasn't "paved", and therefore created your own "street"? You're defining the situation to suit yourself, and while you MAY be perfectly correct in stating there are 3 and only 3 streets, it may be that in the land of Q, using MY map, there are indeed thousands of ways into your village. BTW, congrats on living in a nice tiny village...I had the pleasure once for about 6 years, before it went "commercial" due to ...you guessed it...more transportation avenues being built and leading into/through the town. Suddenly we're a tourist center, and have all the requisite crap that goes with it...3 StarBucks and 5 ice cream parlors and Ye Olde Gift Shoppe times 10....sigh. Had to move finally, it was too sad to watch the transformation. Q

 

[dvnc]

Q, I so appreciate your unique skill in turning a religious discussion to one of the pains of small towns gettin' bigger. Been there, done that, and hated it. Where I live was once a bunch of orchards and vinyards, and most of the towns didn't touch one another, physically, and now that's changed so drastically that it reminds me of LA. Makes me wanna leave it. Ain't like I can't log in elsewhere.

G'luck wit' your cult, you venerable dissident, you.

dvnc

 

[TicklingDuo]

COnsidering some of the exchanges that have been going back and forth here, I thought I'd pass this link along. It's cute. The Christian Hanky Code

Ann

 

[qjakal]

Cute!

Very nice Ms. Ann! Humor helps...always. As for dvnc oh so subtle notion that I, a poor mans theologian, am capable of "turning' a conversation/thread to another subject...pishtosh(is that a word..it SHOULD be a word!)! That's just some of that bigcity slicker L.A. fancy guy talk! Let's all attack him and his claims of little vineyards and rural life! Now THAT's turning a thread around! Q

 

[dvnc]

LA? LOL! That's funny, Q. I'm in the Silicon Valley, nearer to San Francisco than Los Angeles. Some folks never do grasp that whole geography thing... 😉

dvnc
who's never used "pishtosh" in a sentence before

 

[qjakal]

Silicon Valley!

Even worse! You are obviously one of those technogeeks who caused the entire industry to go boom!! and made my stocks go "FLUSHIEEEE"! Little did I suspect the depths of your depravity! And then, to flaunt it so openly on this gentle forum...sigh....there's really no choice, even without the use of the reknowned pishtosh, we must now>>> shun >>> you! Perhaps with years of intensive rehabilitation you may yet become a useful productive member of society, but considering the evils you've perpetrated in the financial well being of millions of innocent trusting Americans and others, I don't hold out much hope for ya. Let the shunning begin!! *turns towards the window* ...*hits the window from turning too fast*..ouch....hard work, this shunning! I'll get the hang of it though. Q

 

[Slappy McGee]

back on topic, almost

these are the lyrics to a Bright Eyes song I just discovered on a Cd I bought the other day.....I really like the song and think it comes from the point of view of a lot of people struggling with faith and questions of higher meaning.... (keep in mind this was written by a 19 year old)

if you have never heard of Bright Eyes, check them out, a really cool indie rock/folk/emo band that have some great music, in my opinion....


"On My Way to Work"

There is a car parked where the block begins
And there are people singing praises,
Say it’s all because of Him

And there is a bird perched on a frayed wet wire
And his voice sings out for a lover
But its covered by the choir

Of voices reaching way beyond the rafters
With devotion they perform these sacred tasks.
They cross themselves and offer up their checkbooks
-Slight suffering is not too much to ask..

Besides, we all are making money
And we are all fucking alone
And we don’t know what we’re doing
Maybe just buying us some hope

Because we know that we are lonely,
Yeah lonely, that’s for sure,
And the older ones are coughing
Yeah the older ones are dying
Maybe we are all dying.

I pass a graveyard on my way to work
Today I saw two dozen white roses
On a fresh new mound of dirt

And I wondered about the occupant
When the darkness finally swallowed him
Was he calm and content?

Or was he sweating in a struggle to keep breathing
Ripping apart the sheets that dressed his bed
Crying out loud for someone to help him
And collapsing on his back all pale and dead?

Maybe it’s me who’s this unstable
Always obsessed about the end.
Why can’t I let what happens happen?
And just enjoy the time I spend.

Oh how I wish it was that easy
But when there’s no point to anything
It can get a bit confusing,
Why it is that I keep going
Why is it that we keep going?

 

[qjakal]

Dooooowner.....

So, I'm guessing these guys don't do a lot of weddings and bar mitzvahs, hmmm? I'm more of a "Here Comes The Sun" kinda guy myself, or a rousing chorus of "I'm A Little TeaPot". Its dark and has disturbing overtones...hope the author got a little help finding something to uplift his/her spirits a bit....19 is a tough age, and everything is very dramatic. Q

 

[Slappy McGee]

yeah, sorry about that, I listen to enough "gloomy" music that I tend to forget that it can be a bit of a downer to some people. I just like good art, and aeven depressing things, when well done, make me happy.

anyway, I thought it apt because of the attitude of confusion, aimlessness, and general unhappiness that accompanies the cynicism about organized religion. I have long believed that one of the many goals of organized religion is to reduce the anxiety that a life with no "greater meaning" can produce in a person. I guess that can be a good thing, who knows.

 

[omega]

anyway, I thought it apt because of the attitude of confusion, aimlessness, and general unhappiness that accompanies the cynicism about organized religion. I have long believed that one of the many goals of organized religion is to reduce the anxiety that a life with no "greater meaning" can produce in a person. I guess that can be a good thing, who knows.

I just finished reading a book where the author and his graduate assistants did surveys and interviews of a large number of what they call the formerly unchurched. They discovered that churches that are reaching the most people are churches who are absolutly convinced of the authority of the Bible. Seems that many people have discovered that life isn't really better outside of the church. When they find a church that isn't wishy washy about the Bible and beliefs they are relieved to find direction in life.

Does this mean that when most people reject organized religion they are rejecting only those churches and people who aren't really sold on their beliefs. I think Q brings this out when he talks about churches who spend lots of money on their buildings and their own selves without thought of what that money could do for other people who struggle financially or otherwise.

Q you have been rightly critical of many things in organized religion. Do you have anything better to replace it with?

Besides the idea of a cult with no doctrine, no creeds, a figurehead leader.

You know, that sounds like the Clinton presidency to me. (Omega mutters under his breath hoping nobody hears him)

 

[qjakal]

Oh...mega

Better? Interesting idea Omega, but a bit impractical. The basic problem with the Church today, is in my humble opinion, twofold: 1) Too BIG!!! Too impersonal and overly businesslike as it reaches a certain "size"...what that critical mass number is varies according to many factors I'm sure, but in general, I think it's reached WAY too often. 2) Too rigid in many areas/issues, and too lax in others...simple,hmmm? As you correctly stated, most people like a clear idea of what the heck they're "supposed" to be doing....but, where do you turn then when you disagree with the precepts of your organization? Issues such as womens rights, abortion, education and funding other programs may not be reflective of my views...should I blindly embrace the vision of the organization and accept what I perceive as "wrongs", sit in the pew, chant and bleat and be assured of my place in heaven? Good intentions are covered in the Book...lol.

And yes, it IS easy to throw the bricks from outside, I concede that....and as Ann has stated, some try to work for reform from within, but it's just not MY way. Replace it? Why not just let it work the way it was designed to, and please the majority. I'm a bit "out there" regarding God, religion and afterlife in general anyway, O, although being semi-human, I miss the comfort of a large socializing organization at times. Guess I'll make my own way, as I have been since my early teen years, when I discovered the actual priorities of the local Church. C'mon...it's kinda "JamesDean" vs. the Giant Church Organization...lol....how can I resist? Your thought provoking comments are always welcome though, Omega...you seem sincere and at least willing to discuss the fact that there may be alternatives to the Church that still allow one to lead a decent life and have some hope of afterlife! More later...fingers are hurting...darn keyboard is getting sticky as well as nearly unreadable due to fading! Q

 

[Strelnikov]

Here's a thought experiment for the anti-clericals among us. Q, take note:

Imagine that your car has broken down on the interstate at 3 AM in the worst part of town. You try your cell phone and the battery is dead as a doornail. Then a van rolls past, stops on the shoulder ahead of you, and backs up. Half a dozen young men get out and walk up to your car.

Think about what you would be feeling as the leader raps on the window glass.

Now imagine that it was a church van, and the young men were wearing WWJD tee shirts. How does that change your outlook on the situation? Be honest.

Strelnikov

 

[qjakal]

Well...

I'd uncock ONE of the guns anyway...lol. You won't get me that easy Strel. I stay out of that part of town, go to bed WAY before 3 am, and always have a spare phone among other things in my trunk "emergency" kit.

Your point is valid, although they may attempt to "save" me, in which case I'd rather be shooting it out with the 6 gang members in the parallel universe we're setting up! But, I have no beef with the actions of INDIVIDUALS within these organizations, other than when they get a bit too rigid and pushy. I'm not debating that the intent and actions of many groups are good, Strel, merely that they aren't a patch on what they could be doing if the mammoth organization they are part of would behave up to its potential.

It could be sooooo much more...

 

[TicklingDuo]

...and Jesus wept

There's a beautiful (I think) painting of Jesus weeping on the hill outside of Jerusalem. The Scripture that is often associated with it reads something to the effect of "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I would draw you unto myself...but you would not." If we pictured ourselves as Jerusalem, I believe Jesus cried for our lack of response as much as that of those there at the time. WE have been called to do greater things and refuse. Even the Catholic Church, who sees itself (among other things) as being the "new Jarusalem" has, in effect, refused to respond to its call.

Q...and many others are correct in their criticism of us (the Church) not walking the talk. May that criticism cut to the heart and lead to reform!

Ann

 

[omega]

Re: Oh...mega

Replace it? Why not just let it work the way it was designed to, and please the majority. I'm a bit "out there" regarding God, religion and afterlife in general anyway, O, although being semi-human, I miss the comfort of a large socializing organization at times. Guess I'll make my own way, as I have been since my early teen years, when I discovered the actual priorities of the local Church. C'mon...it's kinda "JamesDean" vs. the Giant Church Organization...lol....how can I resist? Your thought provoking comments are always welcome though, Omega...you seem sincere and at least willing to discuss the fact that there may be alternatives to the Church that still allow one to lead a decent life and have some hope of afterlife! More later...fingers are hurting...darn keyboard is getting sticky as well as nearly unreadable due to fading! Q

Seems to me if the design of the church is to please the majority then the US and any other democracy is just a big church.

Thank you for noting my sincerity. I worked hard to develop that trait in preachers school. 😎

Worked hard at humbleness too. But it is so hard to be humble when I'm perfect in every way. 😀

I will submit that there are alternatives to the church that will help one to lead a decent life. But alternatives that offer a hope of afterlife, outside the church, maybe. Outside of Jesus, not according to the Bible.

Mmm. . . never thought of Martin Luther as the James Dean type. Puts a whole new spin on some of the quotes attributed to him.

 

[Strelnikov]

Some would argue that the function of a church is to give members a philosophical framework for their lives, a set of rules to live it by, and fellowship so they don't pass through it alone. Individuals are free to do works of charity, as conscience dictates, colored by religious belief. But charity is an individual choice, not a church function.

I don't share Q's dislike for large religious organizations. You need a cathedral to give you a place for the pipe organ.

Strelnikov