Science and Religion

[Mash]

Atheists claim that religion is man made, atheism is also man made, so what's your point?

Her point is, atheism is based off of actual evidence; or rather, a lack thereof. Theism is based off of no measurable evidence. If we were to use actual logic, then Atheism is the most likely of all beliefs.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." ~Victor Stenger ... Oh, Neil Armstrong was a Christian!

I must have missed the part where Christianity built the rocket he flew on. The amount of mental ineptitude it would take to interpret that quote the way you did is astonishing.

 

[PurpleStyle]

Atheists claim that religion is man made, atheism is also man made, so what's your point? Both would then be man made belief systems... Science and atheism? Einstien a Jew, Blaine Pascaul a Christian, Max Planck a Protestant, Guglielmo Marconi a Catholic, then later an Anglican, Werner Heisenberg a Lutheran, most of the great scientists in the history of the world had some type of religious affiliation... __________________
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." ~Victor Stenger ... Oh, Neil Armstrong was a Christian!

Einstein was Jewish only by ethnicity, he held no belief in a creator. You forgot Isaac Newton (christian) and Georges Lemaître, a roman catholic priest. He was responsible for the "primordial atom" idea, which eventually became the big bang.

Now with all of that pointed out, I have to ask... what's your point? :lol None of their accomplishments have anything to do with religion. However, if you want to credit religion with being the progenitor of "good ideas that benefit humanity", then you'll have to look deeper into the past. The Muslims are responsible for the scientific awakening (the renaissance) that Europe experienced; via the moors in Spain. Without concepts like Algebra (al-jabr, literally means restoration) Einstein, Pascal, Planck, Marconi, Heisenberg, Newton, and Lemaitre would be nothing.

So clearly, we should toss out christianity and convert to Islam.

 

[oldskool]

Einstein was Jewish only by ethnicity, he held no belief in a creator. You forgot Isaac Newton (christian) and Georges Lemaître, a roman catholic priest. He was responsible for the "primordial atom" idea, which eventually became the big bang.

Einstein's views are confusing. Sometimes he sounds like an athiest, other times he doesn't. Here is a couple quotes that imply he believed in God.

"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice"

A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

And most important quote I think from him that shows he believed:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

 

[PurpleStyle]

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

- Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

- Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world.

- Albert Einstein, quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2


---
There's much more, but I feel I've proven my point. Einstein's views are not confusing at all. It appears to me that he is a pantheist.

 

[Jagermeistered]

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

- Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

- Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world.

- Albert Einstein, quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2


---
There's much more, but I feel I've proven my point. Einstein's views are not confusing at all. It appears to me that he is a pantheist.

Let me ask you Purple...

When great atheist/agnostic minds make reference to a central being... Is it not satirical? Meaning they are not exposing their beliefs, but amusing the theist; especially, 'their' beliefs. Pretty much 'religious satire', but most importantly, humor.
Watching: Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert or Bill Maher... We can see their 'political satire', and the people en masse understand it, and see the humor in their presentations.

When Einstein spoke of a god or creator; he was merely entertaining the lower caste; 'god believers'... Basically saying, "I'm close to a truth, and you are correct with your beliefs!" Not his quote, but my opinionated conclusion.

 

[likeasong1]

1. You forget that my atheism is based on support and study of science. I've told you this three times now.

I get that (though I don't think it's completely true... you can disbelieve in God but not place trust in science either), but science offers no basis for morality, concept of "good" and "bad", no moral code in science itself.

2. If the TSA weren't thieves, then they would be more transparent in their acceptance/use of donation money. Are they hiding something? 😉

This is so ludicrous you should actually be ashamed of yourself for it. This is drumhead trial logic. Witch hunt logic. McCarthy logic.

3. Again, Mother T built hospices for people to suffer and die in. I cannot see why people think she's a good person.

She also founded the organization that has set up soup kitchens, orphanages, schools, etc. She was involved with a lot more than the hospices. And even if she wasn't, what's wrong with hospices? They allow people to die in a home and a place where they are receiving care and as much alleviation of suffering as possible.

4. Believing that a sexual preference different from your own is bad, and restricting a person's rights based on that, is bigotry.

Close, but no. Bigotry is the actual hatred of that person for that reason. Believing it's wrong and choosing not to legally permit it is not. Otherwise, we as a society are bigots against murderers and pedophiles.

In light of this, I must inform you that I cannot respect your beliefs. They violate my personal ethics that require me to be honest and open-minded, which brings me to my next criticism...

That truly is sad. I've been open-minded to your points of view. I haven't accepted them as my own, but I've been open-minded, and I think I have been fairly honest in this dialogue.

Which "message"? The "different ways to live out one's faith" is the problem. There are so many denominations and conflicting beliefs in place of what should be physical evidence. I am open to considering new ideas (which is what scientific discover thrives on), but I am not open to believing in things without some form of evidence.

The message of salvation through Jesus Christ. I would think that much is obvious. Living out one's faith allows for a variety, according to spiritual gifts, which is why I don't begrudge other denominations their theologies. I do think, however, that it gets warped in awful ways (like the KKK). But again, I do not believe that the corruptibility of humanity disproves the Gospel.

 

[Spawn190]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
~John Adams

 

[Bator]

likeasong, you are wasting you time and energy, who gives a toss what they believe? You know what you believe and so do I, that is enough.

 

[Mash]

likeasong, you are wasting you time and energy, who gives a toss what they believe?

What an UnChristian-like thing to say. As a follower of Jesus, it is your duty to mindlessly hound me about my beliefs until I either convert to Christianity, put a bullet in your temple, or throw myself off of a bridge.

 

[Bator]

What an UnChristian-like thing to say. As a follower of Jesus, it is your duty to mindlessly hound me about my beliefs until I either convert to Christianity, put a bullet in your temple, or throw myself off of a bridge.

You don,t want to know anything about Christianity you have made that very clear. I won,t hound you,you do that much better than I, and I have no duty to you, I don,t even know you. Put a bullet in my temple eh? So you,ve finally hit rock bottom and now your making threats of homicide in an open forum, you need some professional help, may I suggest you get some soon.

 

[PurpleStyle]

I get that (though I don't think it's completely true... you can disbelieve in God but not place trust in science either), but science offers no basis for morality, concept of "good" and "bad", no moral code in science itself.
This is so ludicrous you should actually be ashamed of yourself for it. This is drumhead trial logic. Witch hunt logic. McCarthy logic.
She also founded the organization that has set up soup kitchens, orphanages, schools, etc. She was involved with a lot more than the hospices. And even if she wasn't, what's wrong with hospices? They allow people to die in a home and a place where they are receiving care and as much alleviation of suffering as possible.
Close, but no. Bigotry is the actual hatred of that person for that reason. Believing it's wrong and choosing not to legally permit it is not. Otherwise, we as a society are bigots against murderers and pedophiles.

That truly is sad. I've been open-minded to your points of view. I haven't accepted them as my own, but I've been open-minded, and I think I have been fairly honest in this dialogue.

You don,t want to know anything about Christianity you have made that very clear. I won,t hound you,you do that much better than I, and I have no duty to you, I don,t even know you. Put a bullet in my temple eh? So you,ve finally hit rock bottom and now your making threats of homicide in an open forum, you need some professional help, may I suggest you get some soon.

Your inability to follow conversation properly reveals something startling to me. Mash16 never actually threatened you. Does it reveal anything startling to you? I'll give you a cookie if you can figure it out.

The message of salvation through Jesus Christ. I would think that much is obvious. Living out one's faith allows for a variety, according to spiritual gifts, which is why I don't begrudge other denominations their theologies. I do think, however, that it gets warped in awful ways (like the KKK). But again, I do not believe that the corruptibility of humanity disproves the Gospel.

1. My specific atheism is a direct result of studying science, and rejecting unfounded nonsense. The reason I reject unfounded nonsense is because I have a conscience.

2. Please, don't throw around phrases like "drumhead" and "witch hunt" at me. I don't recall secular-minded people burning witches at Salem. I make observations and ask questions. So, again, I ask, what are they hiding?

3. No, the hospices she made were specifically to make people suffer and die slowly in her care. She was a witch.

4. And I've been open-minded to christianity in the past, but I've also seen every single fallacious argument your "side" has thrown at mine, and I've also seen them ripped to shreds.

5. You've yet to figure out which denomination is the "correct" one, then? You may not think it's a serious question, but you will find that more blood has been shed over this question than you would like to believe.

You don,t want to know anything about Christianity you have made that very clear. I won,t hound you,you do that much better than I, and I have no duty to you, I don,t even know you. Put a bullet in my temple eh? So you,ve finally hit rock bottom and now your making threats of homicide in an open forum, you need some professional help, may I suggest you get some soon.

Your inability to follow conversation properly reveals something startling to me. Mash never actually threatened you. Does it reveal anything startling to you? I'll give you a cookie if you can figure it out.

 

[Adam Tickles]

x

I vote science ! 🙂 for one reason that all religious gods/ ppl who live in the clouds etc etc cannot be sensed on any of the human 5 senses... so how can gods etc be considered to exist? They are figments of the imagination, used to blame bad things in the world, and as an excuse for some peoples actions. Im not saying religion hasnt helped ppl to hope and strive for better things in life.... buuut they are made up, partly for that reason.
🙂😢huhwub😛issed

 

[Mash]

You don,t want to know anything about Christianity you have made that very clear. I won,t hound you,you do that much better than I, and I have no duty to you, I don,t even know you. Put a bullet in my temple eh? So you,ve finally hit rock bottom and now your making threats of homicide in an open forum, you need some professional help, may I suggest you get some soon.

I have to agree with Purple. Quite the contrary, for you to twist my opinions and statements in such a manner, I would actually say that it is you that's getting close to rockbottom.

First off, my complete and total rejection of Christianity is a testament to my knowledge of it. You do not toss something out the window without knowing anything about it. I know that it's a belief based on faith and nothing more; I don't have the mental deficit required to follow such a faith.

Your faith in Christianity obligates you to try and save me. To not do so is to defy your faith.

You took me completely out of context, and completely warped my words; I never threatened you. I wouldn't even have to explain this to a half-retarded walrus. You believe that there is a mysterious man hiding in the clouds whispering sweet nothings in your ear. I think you need help more than me. 😉

 

[Bator]

I wasn,t the one mentioning homicide or suicide, I,m very happy in my beliefs and my life and have no desire to kill myself or murder anyone else for that matter. For you to even mention them shows that you are treading the razors edge and also shows that you have major psychological problems. Of course Purplestyle will have your back on this one, she hates everyone and everything as much as you do, you two have been mocking Christianity and the people that believe in God since the beginning of this thread and now it seems that you have finally stepped over the line and began making serious threats because of the simple fact that certain people have their own beliefs which happen to be contrary to yours. If you had your way we would all be robots and believe as you do Big Brother, well, that isn,t going to happen, the main difference however is that I wouldn,t threaten to murder you or kill myself and who said anything about a man in the clouds? Your ignorance is amazing. Your testament about your knowledge of the Bible is laughable but you hateful and spiteful spirit is not, so get some much needed help before you get yourself in major trouble because you certainly do have a some mental issues{anti-social, sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies} if not a full blown mental illness. So you now want me to waste my time by trying to save you, under these circumstances I must respectfully decline until you see a psychiatrist, get some treatment and deal with your mental problems, then we,ll talk. I also don,t blame the state of the world on God, Satan is in control right now and you are a perfect example of this, he won,t always be you know. I blame it on the greedy, violent, hateful and ambivalant people who feed off or sell their souls to him, God gave us free will so that,s what you get, and you fit very nicely into at least two of those categories. As far as taking what you have stated out of context, you are all over the place not unlike a schizophrenic. I will now try to avoid loud, aggressive, mentally unstable and violent people, you are vexations to the spirit and you are on your own until you get help and become at the very least approachable. Good-bye

 

[Mash]

I wasn,t the one mentioning homicide or suicide, I,m very happy in my beliefs and my life and have no desire to kill myself or anyone else for that matter. For you to even mention them shows that you are treading the razors edge and also shows that you have major psychological problems. Of course Purplestyle will have your back on this one, she hates everyone and everything as much as you do, you two have been mocking Christian beliefs since the beginning of this thread and now it seems that you have finally stepped over the line and began making serious threats because of the simple fact that I have my own beliefs which happen to be contrary to yours, if you had your way we would be robots and believe like you, well, that isn,t going to happen, the only difference is that I wouldn,t threaten to kill you or myself. Who said anything about a man in the clouds, your ignorance is amazing. Your testament about your knowledge of the Bible is laughable but you hateful spirit is not, so get yourself some much needed help before you get yourself in major trouble because you certainly do have a mental deficit or a mental illness. So you want me to try to save you, see a psychiatrist first and deal with your mental problems, then we,ll talk. I also don,t blame the state of the world on God, I blame it on greedy, violent, hateful and ambivalant people, God gave us free will so that,s what you get and you fit very nicely into at least two of those categories. As far as context is concerned you are all over the place somewhat like a schizophrenic. I will now avoid loud, aggressive and violent people, you are vexations to the spirit and you are on your own until you straighten yourself up and become at the very least approachable. Good-bye

So, anyone who talks about murder or suicide is mentally insane? I suppose anyone who's ever had any dealings in the military should be thrown in a looney bin, then. I was talking about it, sure; but I wasn't making any threats. The only psychological problem I have is my ability to not be a mindless sheep and think for myself. I don't base my beliefs from my parents, or my grandparents; I use logic and make my own decisions.
PurpleStyle, and anyone else with the smallest iota of logical mental processes will have my back on this one, my friend. Christianity is inaccurate, and about as logical as Scientology, or stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork.
Your beliefs don't just contradict mine. Your beliefs contradict the very foundations of science.

If I had my way, people would think for themselves. Frankly, modern day robots are more capable of that then a typical Christian.

If a God exists, and he is in fact 'omnipotent', then the state of the world is his fault. He can make humans act the way he wishes, so greedy humans are a bi-product of God. Everything bad in the world is his fault.
Thankfully, I'm not so narrow-minded as to believe that my actions are puppet-stringed by some higher being.

You aren't abandoning this argument because you think I'm unapproachable; if that were true, this would have happened at least 10 pages ago. You're abandoning this conversation because you don't want to admit that Christianity might not be right.

Also, this is unrelated to the topic, but could you get out of the habit of using commas in place of apostrophes? It's a rather huge eyesore.

 

[Jagermeistered]

I wasn,t the one mentioning homicide or suicide, I,m very happy in my beliefs and my life and have no desire to kill myself or murder anyone else for that matter. For you to even mention them shows that you are treading the razors edge and also shows that you have major psychological problems. Of course Purplestyle will have your back on this one, she hates everyone and everything as much as you do, you two have been mocking Christianity and the people that believe in God since the beginning of this thread and now it seems that you have finally stepped over the line and began making serious threats because of the simple fact that certain people have their own beliefs which happen to be contrary to yours. If you had your way we would all be robots and believe as you do Big Brother, well, that isn,t going to happen, the main difference however is that I wouldn,t threaten to murder you or kill myself and who said anything about a man in the clouds? Your ignorance is amazing. Your testament about your knowledge of the Bible is laughable but you hateful and spiteful spirit is not, so get some much needed help before you get yourself in major trouble because you certainly do have a some mental issues{anti-social, sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies} if not a full blown mental illness. So you now want me to waste my time by trying to save you, under these circumstances I must respectfully decline until you see a psychiatrist, get some treatment and deal with your mental problems, then we,ll talk. I also don,t blame the state of the world on God, Satan is in control right now and you are a perfect example of this, he won,t always be you know. I blame it on the greedy, violent, hateful and ambivalant people who feed off or sell their souls to him, God gave us free will so that,s what you get, and you fit very nicely into at least two of those categories. As far as taking what you have stated out of context, you are all over the place not unlike a schizophrenic. I will now try to avoid loud, aggressive, mentally unstable and violent people, you are vexations to the spirit and you are on your own until you get help and become at the very least approachable. Good-bye

Wow! Somebody needs a chill pill - extra strength! Your post is embalmed with flammatory, emotional rhetoric with no intellectual attachments. Also, some assembly required. Too bad the pieces don't fit together...

 

[likeasong1]

1. My specific atheism is a direct result of studying science, and rejecting unfounded nonsense. The reason I reject unfounded nonsense is because I have a conscience.

That's not what science would dictate though. Science says reject unfounded nonsense because it is unfounded. Conscience has nothing to do with it.

2. Please, don't throw around phrases like "drumhead" and "witch hunt" at me. I don't recall secular-minded people burning witches at Salem. I make observations and ask questions. So, again, I ask, what are they hiding?

You are still fallacious in assuming they have anything to hide, or more specifically anything incriminating. And like it or not, it's still McCarthyistic logic. It's the exact reason the Fifth Amendment was put into place. Perfectly patriotic and law-abiding people disgraced by innuendo, which is what you're trying to do here. If indeed they were hiding anything, and I don't believe they even are, it would be for the sake of their donors. Anonymous donations should remain that way... anonymous.

3. No, the hospices she made were specifically to make people suffer and die slowly in her care. She was a witch.

In her care. She was caring for them as they were dying. And even if you see that as pointless, that still doesn't neglect the rest of the work she did that I mentioned above. She was no witch. To condemn what she did in India would be to condemn the concept of "hospice care" worldwide, even as practiced right here in the United States.

5. You've yet to figure out which denomination is the "correct" one, then? You may not think it's a serious question, but you will find that more blood has been shed over this question than you would like to believe.

No, I believe that plenty of blood has been shed over such things, but I don't think it jeopardizes salvation if, for example, you believe that the bread and wine of communion actually become the body and blood of Christ when ingested, if they surround and permeate the bread and wine, or if you believe it is simply symbolic of Christ's body and blood. It's not as ultimately important if you believe the "filioque" phrase of the Nicene Creed or not as has been made out to be. Those types of theological hairs that get split are, in my opinion, not of ultimate concern when compared against things like, is Jesus really the only way to Heaven, which I believe all Christian denominations would say "Yes" to.

Your faith in Christianity obligates you to try and save me. To not do so is to defy your faith.

That does not equal "hounding." What I said to Purple would probably apply to you as well. As you are right now, the more people try to reach out to you, the more you will push away, so it actually does more harm than good to "try and save" you, at least right now. All I'm doing is defending my faith, and showing that it is certainly possible for a person to have faith and not be total whackjob. Can you even give me credit for that?

If a God exists, and he is in fact 'omnipotent', then the state of the world is his fault. He can make humans act the way he wishes, so greedy humans are a bi-product of God. Everything bad in the world is his fault.

In other words, let us have our cake and eat it too: let us flaunt and celebrate our free will, but take absolutely no responsibility for the bad that we do with it. As far as blaming God, God has done things about the state of the world in the past, and he still gives us the chance to atone for the wrongs that we've done. Now what about for your part?

 

[Slaver123]

Science and Religion are BOTH false; Yog Sothoth is the Way: Yog Sothoth is the Gate and the Key!

 

[Jagermeistered]

Science and Religion are BOTH false; Yog Sothoth is the Way: Yog Sothoth is the Gate and the Key!

And, Bruce Campbell is the Icon.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

Science and Religion are BOTH false; Yog Sothoth is the Way: Yog Sothoth is the Gate and the Key!

All hail our tentacled old one overlords!

May they reign long and eternal in their ancient slumber!

^_~

 

[PurpleStyle]

That's not what science would dictate though. Science says reject unfounded nonsense because it is unfounded. Conscience has nothing to do with it.

You are still fallacious in assuming they have anything to hide, or more specifically anything incriminating. And like it or not, it's still McCarthyistic logic. It's the exact reason the Fifth Amendment was put into place. Perfectly patriotic and law-abiding people disgraced by innuendo, which is what you're trying to do here. If indeed they were hiding anything, and I don't believe they even are, it would be for the sake of their donors. Anonymous donations should remain that way... anonymous.

In her care. She was caring for them as they were dying. And even if you see that as pointless, that still doesn't neglect the rest of the work she did that I mentioned above. She was no witch. To condemn what she did in India would be to condemn the concept of "hospice care" worldwide, even as practiced right here in the United States.

No, I believe that plenty of blood has been shed over such things, but I don't think it jeopardizes salvation if, for example, you believe that the bread and wine of communion actually become the body and blood of Christ when ingested, if they surround and permeate the bread and wine, or if you believe it is simply symbolic of Christ's body and blood. It's not as ultimately important if you believe the "filioque" phrase of the Nicene Creed or not as has been made out to be. Those types of theological hairs that get split are, in my opinion, not of ultimate concern when compared against things like, is Jesus really the only way to Heaven, which I believe all Christian denominations would say "Yes" to.

That does not equal "hounding." What I said to Purple would probably apply to you as well. As you are right now, the more people try to reach out to you, the more you will push away, so it actually does more harm than good to "try and save" you, at least right now. All I'm doing is defending my faith, and showing that it is certainly possible for a person to have faith and not be total whackjob. Can you even give me credit for that?



In other words, let us have our cake and eat it too: let us flaunt and celebrate our free will, but take absolutely no responsibility for the bad that we do with it. As far as blaming God, God has done things about the state of the world in the past, and he still gives us the chance to atone for the wrongs that we've done. Now what about for your part?

Are you morally bankrupt, or just intellectually? I have to continually tell you things that you should know already.

1. Of course it has to do with conscience. Remember frauds like Piltdown Man? When people realized it was a hoax, the scientific community admitted it was wrong, and chucked it out. They didn't try to bury it like it was some super secret shameful thing that needed to exist to support their beliefs. Science is about honesty. If you can provide proof that the big bang theory is wrong, or evolution is a lie, or that god is real - guess what? Science would support you. The keyword, though, is If. The scientific community would have it's way with you first, tearing at every fiber of your idea. Not out of spite, but to make sure that it's true.

What is the purpose of scientific gain? To benefit humanity. You can't benefit people if you're being intellectually dishonest; like every preacher, pastor, and church leader in the world.

2. You're just making excuses to stick by your emotionally biased pre-conceived notion that your "is a force for good in the world". If you guys are right by god, why are you hiding behind the 5th amendment? Transparency is a MUST for charities, otherwise you've no idea if the money is going where you intended it to go.

3. Unless she was a licensed medical practitioner, she had no right "caring" for people. That's where I slipped up, I should have put quotations around the word "care", because giving people a cot to suffer and die in without medical attention is not care. Do not use ridiculous strawman arguments against me.

4. Who are you to deem what is and what is not important in the eyes of a being that you imagine is beyond human comprehension? It's not as if there's any disclaimers in the bible you think it's responsible for. Can you explain where there should be hundreds of denominations of christianity? Why are there even separate religions if christianity is the "right" one?

 

[Mash]

That does not equal "hounding." What I said to Purple would probably apply to you as well. As you are right now, the more people try to reach out to you, the more you will push away, so it actually does more harm than good to "try and save" you, at least right now. All I'm doing is defending my faith, and showing that it is certainly possible for a person to have faith and not be total whackjob. Can you even give me credit for that?



In other words, let us have our cake and eat it too: let us flaunt and celebrate our free will, but take absolutely no responsibility for the bad that we do with it. As far as blaming God, God has done things about the state of the world in the past, and he still gives us the chance to atone for the wrongs that we've done. Now what about for your part?

I don't push them away. I tell them that their religion has been proven completely wrong time and again, and they typically just get tired of having their faith smacked about. You can have faith and not be a whackjob...if you believe in something that doesn't classify you as a whackjob.

He has the power to make us all good. Sociopaths are incapable of moral decisions. That is a mental defect. It is not their choice to do 'wrong', they just don't understand the difference between wrong and right, and never will. The God in the Bible is depicted as an evil, despicable character who will smite you for so much as looking at him wrong. Considering the lives taken in Noah's flood, he must have killed somewhere in the range of 30 million people. Satan killed only ten, and that was with God's permission.

The God in the Bible isn't good. He has sinned on a level above human comprehension if anything in the Bible actually occurred, which I am certain is not the case.

 

[Jagermeistered]

I don't push them away. I tell them that their religion has been proven completely wrong time and again, and they typically just get tired of having their faith smacked about. You can have faith and not be a whackjob...if you believe in something that doesn't classify you as a whackjob.

He has the power to make us all good. Sociopaths are incapable of moral decisions. That is a mental defect. It is not their choice to do 'wrong', they just don't understand the difference between wrong and right, and never will. The God in the Bible is depicted as an evil, despicable character who will smite you for so much as looking at him wrong. Considering the lives taken in Noah's flood, he must have killed somewhere in the range of 30 million people. Satan killed only ten, and that was with God's permission.

The God in the Bible isn't good. He has sinned on a level above human comprehension if anything in the Bible actually occurred, which I am certain is not the case.

Nice, lovely and true.

 

[Bator]

1. My specific atheism is a direct result of studying science, and rejecting unfounded nonsense. The reason I reject unfounded nonsense is because I have a conscience.

2. Please, don't throw around phrases like "drumhead" and "witch hunt" at me. I don't recall secular-minded people burning witches at Salem. I make observations and ask questions. So, again, I ask, what are they hiding?

3. No, the hospices she made were specifically to make people suffer and die slowly in her care. She was a witch.

4. And I've been open-minded to christianity in the past, but I've also seen every single fallacious argument your "side" has thrown at mine, and I've also seen them ripped to shreds.

5. You've yet to figure out which denomination is the "correct" one, then? You may not think it's a serious question, but you will find that more blood has been shed over this question than you would like to believe.



Your inability to follow conversation properly reveals something startling to me. Mash never actually threatened you. Does it reveal anything startling to you? I'll give you a cookie if you can figure it out.

No cookies for you but perhaps a whole range of psychotropic medication and a psycologist to deal with your hatred and intolerance and your undeserved feeling of self importance.

 

[Rikusfalto]

Every finite "A" is caused by and originates from "notA".
Every finite "A" effects and ends in "notA".
And every cognitive system containing positive and immanent "A", that is capable and willing to reflect on its own inherent finiteness, needs to address and relate to the negative and transcendential "notA" that inescapably surrounds it.

Religions are subjective idealistic paradigms about personal relationships with the transcendential through a system of allegories and symbols, mostly unaware of this. To those who can discover personal meaning in
their symbolism, they have meaning. To those who can't, no amount of intellectualization will make them understand it.
Because this insults their pathological need of superiority, the atheists wilfully interpret this as a proof of falsehood and the ignorance, insanity, and inferiority of the believers, using science as
figleaf to entitle themselves with absolute authority over what they think is the One Truth.

But science is not the Truth. Science is an institution of describing the immanent from the perspective and purpose of winning intellectual dick-measuring contests. Religion is not.
Science is necessarily autistic and objectifying, incapable of handling symbolism and meaning, because they are not reproduceable, not translateable to its language. If you are willing to believe
this makes them false, then welcome to self-deception.
Science is not the Saviour of Mankind, it is not about common good or betterment of anything, it is about description. The only thing it has resembling ethics is about adherence to the rules of
academic debate, period. Projecting morality into it brings you to Lysenkoism. What actually helps mankind is technology, what is an unintended side-product of science , and only matters in service of
Human Intent. Siding with it does not makes you a good person.

The real reason of your scientism is because you believe the magical qualities you project into science becomes yours by virtue of chosen identity.
A false sense of self as a front for your intellectual narcissisim, that spares you from realizing that you don't understand what religion is about.

This entire thread is nothing but a festival of moral posturing.

English is not my first language.