Tickling/Religion/Guilt & Evil...

[BigJim]

Quoting Iggy again:
"Maybe we should wait untill kids have the capacity to understand religion before we show them religion."

And Big Jim:
"I'd agree with that."

*sigh*

Fellas, Joby's a mom. I'm a dad. She and I have both explored this issue from both sides now. We know what we're talking about. With all due respect, until you've been a parent, you don't.

Strelnikov

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuussssssssseeeeeeeee me! This isn't a forum where the results of the discussion will be directly implemented. It's a forum where we can all kick ideas around. Would you have told me to keep my unparented nose to myself if I'd agreed with you?

You might also have noticed that I didn't say keep them ignorant. I said keep them free of doctrine.

 

[dvnc]

Re: dvnc...

Nice day, eh? It's aboot time you started posting here again. Good to hear from you again, you hoser!

Congrats on your marriage. May your lives be long, happy and prosperous.

Strelnikov

Thank ya, sir, on all counts. Glad to be back into this thread. Good crew here again, too. Great to see you posting. You and Q are still the two I can rely upon to point out somethin' I just didn't know or consider!

The whole marryin' deal is one series of delightful surprises and experiences, thus far. Bein' a parent, now, instead of the surrogate uncle, is a fine deal, and I've been blessed wit' a warm, bright, whiz of a boy. Life is good, eh?

dvnc

 

[dvnc]

Quoting Iggy again:
"Maybe we should wait untill kids have the capacity to understand religion before we show them religion."

And Big Jim:
"I'd agree with that."

*sigh*

Fellas, Joby's a mom. I'm a dad. She and I have both explored this issue from both sides now. We know what we're talking about. With all due respect, until you've been a parent, you don't.

Strelnikov

Wait, I'm agreein' with ya again? Wow. Cool.

If ya don't have a kid, y'don't know the capacity. If ya doubt this, spend more than two days with them, constantly, while providin' for their care. Spend your own dough, too, so you get the full concept. Wrap the cost, the love given and received, and everything else you experience, multiply by the number of minutes Strel OR Jo has at this, and then you'll likely dig what he's sayin'. I sure do. It's a different head, and it DOES vary dependin' on the kid, too. Get a particularly phobic sort, and you don't wanna ram "God-will-get-you" thoughts down their delicate little throats, and the tough ones could care LESS what God says. It's a wide and varied scene.

dvnc

 

[dvnc]

Re: nice tto see you back dvnc

i noticed i'm the only one you singled out to disagree with😛
now i have to ask you, are you telling us that your mother just let you go exploring (religions) with out any supervision? she didn't ask anything? you didn't talk to her at anytime, about what you learned?
i agree with strel, joby, and myself. children DO NOT have the capacity to understand religion, and to decide for them selves. dvnc possibly being a remarkable exception.
steve

Hiya Steve,

I note you 'cause I *know* you can take it, and some here I don't yet know well enough. 'Sides, wouldn't ya be sad if I didn't spar just a little?

I am indeed tellin' ya that my let me go explorin' this (as if a kid wit' a library card couldn't find it himself). I'll further clarify - she told me I should. Told me that the library would provide a lot of info, but that I should try attendin' wit' friends' families, and should try askin' questions of the guys in charge, whether minister, pastor, priest, rabbi, etc.

I'm NOT saying she didn't ask to discuss such, and provided me wit' insight I still use today. My ma rocked. Havin' a Native-American, hippie, shrink, young single mother in the 60s and 70s was a good deal. She talked to me about EVERYTHING, it seemed. Still seems that way. Because she did, I responded well to such discussions. I did occasionally embarrass the woman, pipin' up wit' a thought that folks figured kids shouldn't have. Oddly, it was contagious, and many of my friends and schoolmates were affected by her, that way. My best man was one o' my grade school pals, and he remembers her likewise, and some of the head he has now is 'cause o' her. Both he AND his parents say so.

That, though, DOES depend on the kid. Maybe I'm special. Somehow, beyond the old hippie "I'm-the-only-me-far-as-I-can-see" notion, I just don't think I was that radically exceptional, then or now. I've known too many excellent thinkers, in both college and the software development and computer creation work environs.

It's a parent's place to decide whether or not to educate their children about the differences in what they WANT their kid to do and what other kids are taught to do. It's a parent's place to explain the situation. That's part of the role. For instance, I ain't lettin' my kid blame Muslims for Terrorist problems, 'cause all Muslims don't do it. I teach him about my family's faith and heritage, and encourage him to attend a different church. He likes his faith, and I've no problem wit' a faith based on love. If there's a point on which I disagree, he and I get to grab the Bible, find out whether such is actually IN there, or is just the INTERPRETATION of the minister in question. He'll likely go questioning them, knowin' already that when you get only "heretic" as a response, it means they don't have a good answer. His church seems to be teachin' him good things thus far, though.

It's my belief that it's a parent's role to teach their children, and to guide the teachings of others for their children. Those not agreeing WILL ignore this, or will vehemently argue. Either way, I'm comfortable with the methodology.

 

[dvnc]

Steve, you agree with yourself? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Good to see you back, dvnc, and congratulations again on the nuptials. May you be as happy as me and Mrs. Daumantas.

Good point on teaching kids about religion, Joby. Somebody has to teach kids values about something, and who better equipped than their parents?

Aw, I resisted teasin' Steve for nothin'? Damn. 😉 He's allowed, far as I'm concerned, 'cause he'll stick wit' the discussion for as long as it takes to make it clear.

Thanks for the congradulations, Daumantas! I hope to be as happy as the many couples here that are blossoming in this interest. It delights me to see such! Good to see you agreein' wit' Joby. Not hard for me to say, seein' as how I agree, too.

dvnc

 

[dvnc]

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuussssssssseeeeeeeee me! This isn't a forum where the results of the discussion will be directly implemented. It's a forum where we can all kick ideas around. Would you have told me to keep my unparented nose to myself if I'd agreed with you?

You might also have noticed that I didn't say keep them ignorant. I said keep them free of doctrine.

Actually, BigJim, it IS just such a forum. While you may not, others here have commented about how stuff they read here helps 'em elsewhere. That's human nature. We all get to kick around idea, and sometimes, folks disagree. Of those times, some of 'em have valuable notions. Strel used to catch me wit' stuff I hadn't considered on a regular basis, back when I could post more, as I've been doin' of late.

Also, keepin' a kid free of doctrine isn't possible in the age of television. One must actually attend to their children's thoughts and statements to discern what they think they know, and thus must also provide what, as parents, you feel is appropriate for your youth.

Is it always perfect? Will I never make a mistake? If so, you'll know. They'll crucify me shortly thereafter. Perfect people rarely exist, and the documented ones don't usually have kids. Hey, wait a minute... hmm... nah, I like my boy too much. Screw perfect. I'll do my level best, and apologize as an old guy, as nearly every parent does at some point. Shocked me when my ma did. I still think her a parent above all others, as I figure many do of their folks, and was perplexed when the teeny little mistakes she perceived seem to bug her so. They didn't sweat me a bit. Even the mistakes taught me stuff.

Regardless, unless we start usin' the word "hypothetically" a whole lot more, this thread is a discussion, and as such, WILL carry past the bounds of the window. Learnin' does that. I learned stuff here today, and it'll follow me. I don't think I'm so special that I'm the only one, and thus don't figure anyone else is, either. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that, too.

Geez I'm postin' a lot. Bein' sick does it to me. Stuck wit' a laptop and a book. Tired o' the book, which, speakin' o' my kid, is one o' his. This is the first time I've read a story strictly 'cause my kid wanted to talk about it so much. Glad the content is so varied, and the writin' interesting. What book? That Harry Potter stuff. A bit cute, but not bad writin' at all. Definitely amazes me that it made the author so much dough, until I realize that it teaches a lot to wee folk. Hm... maybe I'll read again. Some dead guy's whinin' 'bout havin' not been headless enough...

dvnc

 

[BigJim]

Dave, for the most part I agree with everythnig you say. I think some people have the idea that I'm anti EVERYTHING about religion. Being a religious scholar I know that isn't true, because I've read a lot of religious books (I own a KJB, an English copy of the Koran and a copy of the Book of Mormon and read a lot online and in libraries too) and have taken a lot of lessons to heart. The main thing I distrust religion for is the "follow this at the exclusion of all other doctrines" line. Nowadays more and more people are questioning thing they're told, and putting their own valus into them. It probably won't suprise a lot of you to learn that when I was forced into Sunday School classes, I was always asking the awkward questions. Thing like why if God is so loving, does the Bible (which I was reading of more than I was supposed to) portray him with all the characteristics of a rascist, indiscriminate murderer and a bigot? The only answers I was ever given was "the world is God's train set and he can do what he likes with it." I never trusted something that provided such inadequate answers to my questions.

So teaching kids about the real lessons and leaving out the Hitlerian stuff about a chosen people and destroy two cities utterly because one guy could'nt find a good person in only one of them, sits fine with me. If a child of mine expressed the wish to follow a religion I would'nt stand in his way, because within reason everyone has the right to express their individuality in their own chosen way. Especially children.

On a note to the people who think I should keep my nose out of this debate because I'm not a father yet, well I've never tickled someone in bondage either but I have plenty of opinions on it, know a hell of a lot about it and people for the most part are happy to hear my views. I know (before anyone gets uptight) that raising offspring is a million times more complex and trying, but if I stay out of debate and learning about it, I'll be a lot worse off than if I just wing it when the day arrives. I have a lot of experience with handling kids, even though they weren't my own and if nothing else that has given me some knowledge.

 

[dvnc]

Brother, yer a bigger man than most to find fault in your posts and declare such. Bigger still for settin' the record straight. I've respect for that.

Props t'ya, BigJim!

Now, where were we?

 

[JoBelle]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

This thread was just what a girl needs to hear! Y'all disagreein' then makin' up so nicely just makes my heart go all a flutter! 😉 he
DVNC, you said what I've always tried to say, but was too emotional to get the words to come out just so. And, Jimbob...hehe....you ARE starting to sound like me and we haven't talked in almost a week! 😛

I don't mean to knock non-parents' views on raisin' a kiddo. I had strong opinions pre parenting too. Many stayed the same, but many changed. In the end...every second of my existence is centered around my kid. What folks without 'em don't dig is a simple thing though. I've never been able to explain how every single aspect of your life changes. EVERY thing. You don't go to the bathroom alone, you don't read a book alone, you don't take a ride in the car alone, your language changes, you have to be mindful of when you have a beer, you have to clothe, feed and pamper another body AND soul EVERYDAY for OF YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!

EVERYTHING is different. So, along that same reasoning, one's views on religion will change. AT LEAST in the presentation of it. When did my views change? When I found out that I had another life riding passenger in my tummy. All of a sudden, I started to realize that if I sleep on the wrong side, I could be achin' the little one. Things as basic as what happened when I SLEPT were now at issue. I decided if I managed to get this kid to birth, much less to the altar of god I was doing pretty damn well! LOL

Now I'm dealin' with the god issues and I'm hoping old fogies like my buddy Strel *hugs* can help me out! 😉 😛
Joby

 

[BigJim]

I think I'd make a half-decent father, but what Jo just said, frightened the shit out of me! 😱 😱 😱



😉

 

[omega]

I think I'd make a half-decent father, but what Jo just said, frightened the shit out of me! 😱 😱 😱



😉

I heard a quote once that I think went like this:

Parents need to be people who have thick skin and can enjoy the battle.

As my daughter gets closer to teenager I am just now beginning to appreciate this statement. Actually BigJ, don't let what Jo says scare you. (if she scares you again just threaten her with your feather) There are lots of changes for fathers but I think that the mother goes through the most changes. At least in our case because my wife has made the decision to not work outside of the home she is with the kids much more than I am. I think that having kids changed many more things for her than for me.

And from what I have seen of fathers, many good, a few terrible, the best thing you can do for your kids is to love their mother. Next would be to remember that for kids love is spelled T-I-M-E. Spend lots and lots of time with your kids. My father did with me and I am trying to do that with his grandkids.

 

[Daumantas]

Like I said before, me and Mrs. D don't have kids, for reasons that are too complicated to go into here. I don't for a minute presume to know what it's like to be a parent, and for that reason I don't try to offer undesired parenting advice (except when someone who obviously isn't paying attention inflicts their kids on you in a public place; then I'll think, "My mom would NEVER have put up with me doing that!").

I do know how quickly it was different when me and Mrs. D got married, and how it instantaneously felt different. I can't explain how; it just DID. You're married, and it's a whole different world. So I have no doubt that what Joby says is true - having children, I expect, surely changes your life in ways she couldn't explain if she tried.

 

[Strelnikov]

Joby, dvnc, steve, D: Thanks for the kind words.

Jim, I'm NOT telling you to butt out. Even mistaken viewpoints are sometimes worth hearing LOL...no, seriously, you're one of the more thoughtful people here. And FWIW, you probably will be a good parent when the time comes. (I was scared shitless too.)

BTW Jim - cool sig.

Strelnikov

 

[qjakal]

Signatures...

Speaking of which, why don't you drag your moldy ancient carcass over to Ven and Venrayas Logo Shop in the general Discussion Threads and get yourself an arrow through a Russian hat or something jazzy, Strel? Spruce the place up a bit, ya know? Hehe...😉 Q

 

[dvnc]

Glad I could contribute to this fine ole thread in pleasin' ways, Jo! Parenting is such a trip to me, in action. Nothin' like I imagined. Both better AND worse, and I wouldn't give it up to save my own life. I actually already SEE where what I contribute is helpin' the little guy. Can't wait to see what my ma, and others of her gen, say about watchin' your babies have their own, and get jobs and become this whole person, separate from you.

You get to give to that, and the better you do, the better they do. That's a fine feeling. Helps when he ain't gettin' himself grounded, or cryin' about some difficult homework beyond his ability, yet. You provide the best you can, and the kid actually improves right before your eyes. Closest thing I've seen to magic, yet.

Gak, I wax poetic about fatherhood. Somewhere, someone just like me, but younger, is gagging. 😉

Happy to be contributing in ways that please,

dvnc

 

[Strelnikov]

Staying on topic

Quoting Myriads from "Forum Rules":
"When posting in threads, please remain on topic for the thread. Posts that 'hijack' the thread into personal conversations may be deleated by the forum moderators. Repeated offences may result in loss of access to the subforum the posting takes place in."

Yikes! We're all in trouble! I don't even remember what the original topic of this thread was. Trains? Musical instruments? Child raising? Help me out here, guys. I don't want to get banned.

Strelnikov

 

[Daumantas]

This has kind of become the All-Purpose Thread...the melting pot of threads, if you will.

I am becoming convinced that if you read enough of this thread, you will sooner or later, know absolutely everything about everything.

For example, right now me and Mrs. D are having a problem with some unseen *&^(*& from down the street who keeps letting their dog poop in our front yard. I firmly believe that if I weren't so lazy, I could simply go back and re-read this thread and it would tell me how to keep a dog from pooping in your front yard.

Long Live The Thread!

 

[dvnc]

Agendas aren't all bad. If my agenda for raising my son is to teach him to care for himself and those around him, that's a good thing, yes? I'm agreein' wit' the preacher-man, here. Glad you're here, Omega!

Imposing your beliefs on someone else is usually socially graceless, at best. Sharing, however, is considerate. I've had friends of many different faiths share with me their faith's reasoning. Sharing good. Imposing bad. Kinda simple.

Omega, for instance, shares. It's part of why I appreciate the padre. He's a positive example.

Gotta love a thread that's this diverse. Because of some careless posting habits, spamming as many threads as possible every day, we're dangerously close to regulating thread posting habits.

I so wish that the stupid rating system for volume of posts would just go away. I have to weed through SO many essentially informationless posts. I suspect they exist because someone applied a value to quantity, instead of quality. I hope that folks get back to posting thought rather than chasing thread counts. It's makin' my moderating life unpleasant, and turning me off from checking posts, knowing that most of the "modifications" are going to be one of a handful of people just typing to hear the keys banging, and increasing their silly thread counts. Eventually, threads will get regulated further, and likely, the running total of posts on each member's listing will get hidden, as it's clearly distracting some folks from the point of this forum. It's not a competition here. It's a tickling forum. One that has widely diverse and interesting conversation for which I'm thankful.

 

[BigJim]

How could you have a religion without an agenda? How could you have anything without an agenda?

Hmmm, I think I might be able to pre-empt Alex's reply there. If I get this wrong Alex, then I apologise.

If Alex's opinion is the same as mine, then the "agenda" he is refering to is the "control by fear, guilt and poverty, whilst maintaining our own power" agenda. Just about every major religion in the world has this as part of it's "agenda" and the people are much the worse off for it. If the agenda is "educate people about the possibilities of everlasting life" than that's fine. But if it's "educate the people about how they'll burn in the fires of Hades if they don't do as we say and how every other religion in the world is wrong", then that's not fine. Seriously not fine.

 

[JoBelle]

Just playing the counter melody for a moment...

Jim, what if the so-called agenda of (to use your example) "burning in Hades" for believing something different really is part of the belief system of certain people? Would you still call it an "AGENDA?" I've been guilty of this myself, but it seems you are going to label them extremists because you disagree.

Having sat through many a service at a (U.S.) Southern Pentacostal church with friends, I can tell ya some thoughts of those attending were FAR stronger than those by anyone with any church "authority." When they "witnessed" to me, tact wasn't part of the lecture. I wore pants *GASP* which apparently showed some SERIOUS disrespect in their house of worship and that led to some mighty fine down home Christian info being passed my way.

Thing is this....they didn't tell me I was going to burn just to get more in the offering plate. They were worried that I wasn't going to make it to heaven. I think what I feel from most people who have "agendas" is fear that you're really going to get screwed in the end if you don't go with the path they have chosen. There are all sorts of reasons for this, Validation-of-Self being one of the tops I think.

Just curious where the line is between an empassioned opinion and concern and an "agenda."

Joby

 

[BigJim]

Good question Joby-Wan, and one I'm glad to answer.(This is gonna be a long post I'm afraid!)I'm talking about things that are greater than single person POV's. The people you're talking about have (in my view anyway, I know you don't agree) been manipulated into fearing just about everything. The "agendas" I refer to are the ones that have turned those people into emotional prisoners because they are terrified, riddled with guilt and mortified just by the very thought of expressing themselves freely. People like that don't have an "agenda" in my take on the word; they're the victims of one. The "agenda" isn't controlled by them, it's implemented on them. Overt dictation always has a finite life, because you can see, touch, taste, hear and smell it. There will always be a rebellion against it. Covert dictation is much more malignant because until it's revealed and recognised it has an infinite life.

The religious agenda the world over, is to turn a thriving mass of individuals with infinite possibilities, into a grey splat, with no individuality and no inclination to try to show one because of fear and guilt. People in the rank and files of different churches and temples all over the world have ni idea that what they're supporting is bad and degrading. They think it's good and pure. They've been blinded to all other aspects of life and will continue to remain blind, so long as they feel safer in bed at night because they've given away control of their minds and therefore their lives to some unseen party.

I often think that devoutly religious people who won't even fart if their church tells them it's the wrong day of the week, would be really terrified by the prospect of true freedom. With true feedom, comes responsibility and a lot of people are scared to embrace that fully because they've been clinging to a strict, life-dictating doctrine for too long. When they do this, they also start throwing this sort of bilge water at other people in a desperate effort to convert them to the same limited vision of reality. From what you've said (they were horrified because you weren't all meek and mild in a skirt) I'd guess that the people you mention belong to his group.

People like that don't have a conscious agenda, they've been sub-consciously conditioned to implement someone else's. They are totally innocent of any participation in an "agenda" because they don't even relise that they are part of it. They truly believe they're making the world a better place; when in fact all they're doing is blinding other human beings to how truly magnificent and omnipotent they are. I would'nt class you like that, because you have an extremely strong sense of individuality and aren't afraid to show it. You even admit that you go as far as to admit to neighbours and relatives about your "kink". I once mentioned three rules that would turn Earth from a prison into a paradise. From what I know of you as a person, you lived by them fo a long time without ever needing to be told. I wish there were more people like you Joby-Wan: people who aren't blinded by fear and guilt and who don't try to impose crap on others. If there were more like you in the world, then it would be a lot happier a place. 😉 😛

 

[dvnc]

BigJim, in your reply to Jo, I see a conspiracy theorist generalizing about one HUGE and diverse group.

Point 1 - not everyone having religion is being manipulated. Maybe the UK is far different than I perceived on several visits, but here, in North America, there are dozens of religions competing for the attention of the masses, and some compete simply by existing.

The Taoists and Buddhists aren't running press gangs here.

Neither are all the Christians.

Yeah, SOME Christian groups are tryin' hard to guilt folks. You have to be willing to pay attention to them to get caught into that.

Heck, some (like the Judaic faiths) are extremely selective about who "gets in".

There are worse CORPORATIONS on this continent than the religious groups.

Point 2 - Religions don't all agree, hence, the cooperation you describe, for a "world-over" entity, don't appear to exist. If they did exist, they're extremely surpressed. They aren't reaching ME, for instance. I don't get pressures from the Hindu, nor the Islamic, nor the Jewish. I ignore what Christian pressures I do get, and many of them don't bother doing such.

Point 3 - I'm not sure if you're aware of it, BigJim, but the way in which you describe what you see can be perceived as very demeaning to those of any religious faith. Paragraph 2 of your post has them as performing acts both "bad and degrading", calling them "blind to all other aspectis of life", and having "given away control of their minds". Do you realize that you're insulting a large group, here? You and I are of the few here that aren't tied to a large religious group.

Point 4 - Prejudicial behavior is everywhere, including outside of any particular church. I knew punk rockers with prejudice. You, for instance, are judging ALL religion based on what, in your description, is the extremist end of the religious spectrum that I've experienced.

'Course, it's all my opinion, brother. I just hope no one takes offense. I, fortunately, am outside the view of those you persecute with your stated opinions. I do find your treatment of them to be offensive, but I'm not convinced that you know you're BEING offensive to me, and I don't require your behavior to be inoffensive, anyway. I like ya regardless.

 

[BigJim]

I'm glad you like me regardless D; I'm not taking the piss when I say that that means a lot to me.

There are certainly a lot of diverse and far reaching religions, but all have one thing in common. (I'm talking major religions here, not the geographically specific ones like the beliefs of the native Americans and the aborigines.) They all emanated from the same place (the middle and near east) and they all tell versions of the same thing. Even something like Hinduism (or Buddhism) started there and then migrated eastwards into the Indus Valley. Indeed certain secular groups are very selective. I would say that is sad, because it's a version of racism when you get down to it. That sort of thing is very handy for keeping people of different ethnic origins apart from each other spiritually. You'd be very suprised just how much different religions DO agree though. They are nearly all variations on the same theme, with different costumes and different names for their respective figures. The figures called Christ, Tammuz, Horus, Krishna etc are all the same person told by a different religion in a different part of the world, at different times in my opinion.

I would'nt condemn all people who callthem selves christian either. Indeed in another thread I made a big point about how a lot of rank and file people express a loving spirituality through their Christian beliefs. I am condemning no-one who acts in a friendly and open minded way. If you're a jew, baptist, muslim or any denomination of christian and you express brotherly love to other humans, then hey, I love you too! (That was directed to the third person, not you specifically D.)

I'd also agree with you that religion isn't controlling as any people as it used to. (When you said they're not reaching you I mean.) People have been waking up from spiritual slumbers for a period of years now and more and more are deciding for themselves how to speak to the Almighty without needing a 15%'er in the middle. I'd say that what applied to religion a hundred years ago, now more or less applies to "conventional" science today. When it was obvious that relgious doctrine was losing it's hold, conventional science with all it's imponderables, missing links and black holes conveniently took it's place. Science as is prescribed by official channells explains even less about the world than religion did a centurey ago, and is in my view, a part of the suppression of knowledge of what we are. I'd agree with you absoloutley that corperations have more effect at brainwashing these days than many religions do. As far as I can tell it's part of the same theme. Make sure the people never become anything other than sheeple.

My saying that I believe conventional religion to be a con, designed to hi-jack human spirituality should'nt be taken as an insult to anyone, if it had done. I judge no-one on what they believe religios-speaking and don't believe I have the right to insist that they believe what I do. In fact, if someone is capable of expressing a happy spirituality through being a christian, but turned barren and bitter through believeing what I believe; then I believe that it would be better if they stayed how they were. If someone is a loving person who acts like the good Samaritan, then that person is an asset to humanity and I'd be happy to call that person a friend. Doesn't matter what denomination of chritianity they subscribe to, nor if they're a jew, moslem, hindu or buddhist. (sp?)

I'm not looking for converts to a cult and I'm not looking for people to be fans of me. I just like to encourage others to use their FULL intellect and gut feeling about spiritual possibilities before they subscribe to anything that says they won't reach heaven if they wear trousers instead of a skirt.

I mean to insult no-one. If someone takes offence at what I say, then that's upsetting for them. I hope they realise that I don't hold religion against them. I hope they realise that because they subscribe to something I think is a con, that I don't look down on them or anyone else. It's not my business what core values someone has; I just like to talk about my points of view on what information I've gathered over the last 4 and a half years. Shortly before that I was a committed christian myself. I didn't go to church regularly, but I prayed every night and every morning to a figure I identified as the christian Christ. I'm no less of a person for not doing that any more, I just freed myself from strict dogma of original sin and being born a sinner who had to beg for a chance of salvation, and started to follow my own path to the Almighty.

 

[omega]

I mean to insult no-one. If someone takes offence at what I say, then that's upsetting for them. I hope they realise that I don't hold religion against them. I hope they realise that because they subscribe to something I think is a con, that I don't look down on them or anyone else. It's not my business what core values someone has; I just like to talk about my points of view on what information I've gathered over the last 4 and a half years. Shortly before that I was a committed christian myself. I didn't go to church regularly, but I prayed every night and every morning to a figure I identified as the christian Christ. I'm no less of a person for not doing that any more, I just freed myself from strict dogma of original sin and being born a sinner who had to beg for a chance of salvation, and started to follow my own path to the Almighty.

I am very insulted by the fact that you don't want to insult anyone.
(you just can't win for losing)

Interesting the take on what freedom is. For me the doctrine of original sin and forgiveness through Jesus is not binding in anyway. You see I didn't beg for salvation, I received what is freely offered to me. It was very freeing indeed to come to a point where I could receive and accept that kind of unconditional love.

 

[BigJim]

I am very insulted by the fact that you don't want to insult anyone.
(you just can't win for losing)

Interesting the take on what freedom is. For me the doctrine of original sin and forgiveness through Jesus is not binding in anyway. You see I didn't beg for salvation, I received what is freely offered to me. It was very freeing indeed to come to a point where I could receive and accept that kind of unconditional love.

I'm glad you replied to this Omega, because I appreciated very much something that you said in an earlier post on I think, this very thread. You described your ministry as something like being very free and unconnected to any hierarchy. I think you said it was a totally local thing and existed soley for the purpose of bringing the folks of your community together so they could share their spirituality.

That sort of thing goes right up my flagpole. (In a manner of speaking. 😀) Now we don't agree on the fundemental tenets of your faith, but what we do agree on is that spirituality can be a very simple and freedom giving thing. The way christianity was originally designed wasn't like that at all. It was "believe this totally and make war on those who don't, or we'll stone you to death!" (That was Constantine's version of it, not Christ's. In this sign, you shall conquer and all that.) I think you said yourself that you were'nt a fire and brimstone preacher of the normal mould, but that you were just a person who provided people with some sort of focus to centre their spiritual practices on. I have no problem with that at all, in fact I love it to bits! Whether Christ was a factual figure or a fictional one isn't the point of this thread, the way His teachings are dealt out is. The way you deal them out seems to be without predjudice and flame. As I said before, a lot of people express a loving spirituality through their christian beliefs. If it was a choice of having a person like that, or having them believe what I do and being bitter and shallow; well I'd prefer them to stay christian because it makes the world a better place.

I suppose in the end, it doesn't matter what people believe. If the believe the moon is made of green cheese but it helps them to be loving to their fellow man, then let it be that way. More and more people these days are finding their own ways to speak to the Almighty; you too it seems. If limiting and degrading doctrine can be dissolved like that and turned into something so harmonious, then waggons roll!

The only point I'd differ from you on, is the original sin bit. To me, that was an invention that was used to put people in fear of their souls and make them act the way the original church wanted them too. I don't believe the original founders of any major religions wanted anyone to realise their own spiritual worth. They just wanted to make them realise what the church made them perceive as being their spiritual worth. That was an ideal way to impose control on the population without lifting a finger. More an more people are breaking away from the idea of being "born a sinner", which I believe is total crap. The only sins I believe I have to atone for at birth are the ones I committed in a previous life. Karma will make or break me in that regard I guess.

As far as I'm concerned, I am a droplet of water and God is the ocean. When a droplet is plunked into the ocean, it becomes it. I believe that the positive energy field created by people being good, has a collective consciousness and that is what I think of as "God".