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Tickling/Religion/Guilt & Evil...

Hey qjakal,

actually these thoughts are a short version of a chapter in a book I wrote about 20 years ago (in German), called 'Amusing Chats on Evolution'. It was never published though, I wrote it just to find a logical thread within my own thoughts, and a way to verbalize them. I gave this book to my elder daughter on occasion of the German equivalent of her college exam. Glad you like my thoughts anyway... 🙂

And my protoplasm does everything to make me want to leave it, so I just have to find other ways for my own eternity! 😎
 
Hello fellow Service Member...Flatfoot

Flatfoot,
Welcome to the TMF. You have a very valid post although slightly off subject but the idea is clear😉 I don't believe anyone should feel guilty about the thoughtful and considerate actions we offer to others. Especially if the "receiver" enjoys it and benifits from it. The way I see it, I wouldn't give you any demerits for enjoying giving a footrub. And I certainly wouldn't place you in the same light as the other "suiters" that she had.

So, having said that, let's get back on the main track here. OK, where were we? Oh yeah, I very much like the thought provoking outpour of MadKalnod (I mean that in a positive way). He expresses most of my similar sentiments.

Qjakal,
Great thread. Very interesting. I think you are right in assuming that most of us that have responded are of a similar opinion regarding organized religion. You hit it right on the head. I'm not a religious person myself and do not support it. I do not need anyone to tell me if what I do is right or wrong. I can think of worse things than consenting tickling.
 
Take me to the other side...

Thanks MM, always happy to hear an encouraging word. I've been working hard to keep this thread near the top to attract some new people with opinions! Now...we need a voice from the "other side". Not the extremist position, but someone more mainstream regarding religion than the current posters, who seem almost unanimous in our views. This topic has implications that reach throughout our entire lives, and the effect of guilt/religion/evil has consequences to us all. It may cause us to "hide' our fascination and stifle our creativity thereby, and indeed may plague all aspects of our life by souring us on ourselves in some way.....hopefully we'll have another viewpoint or two help us work through and inside this discussion. Q
 
Maybe..

Or maybe we have NO mainstream people...hmm..wouldn't that be compelling evidence of....something? 😕
 
I don't know if I qualify.

I don't know if I count as being "mainstream", but I think I am close. I was raised with the more spiritual side of christianity and yes I still practice it. I don't believe in denominations such as presbyterian and lutheran. I have lots of family that are active in ministry and I have been active in it myself. I still take part in it when asked.
Now to get to the point: The christian definition of what is evil lies in the ten commandments. Nowhere in the ten commandments (or anywhere in the bible that I know of) does it say you cannot enjoy sex or enjoy tickling. The first one being " I am the Lord your God.....you shall have no other gods before me." According to my faith, if I were to put my love of tickling above my relationship with God then yes, I would be living in sin. There have been times where that has happened and I've had to take a break from the forum. The Bible does not agree with the idea of pre-marital sex and there is no escaping that issue. But to enjoy your sexuality within that union is just as important and vital to the marriage as anything else in that relationship. If that involves tickling, foot fetish, or flapping around the room covered in hershey syrup and white feathers making chicken sounds, it isn't considered a sin. If you honestly think the Bible teaches you to not enjoy your sexlife, I would invite you to read Song of Solomon and come back to me with that same conclusion. Alot of denominations and misinformed individuals will try to teach you differantly. There is a personal offense Iv'e kind of taken to some of the posts Iv'e seen regarding this thread. Just because sombody misuses a faith or religon does not mean that it teaches you to be oppressive. I doubt anywhere in Greek and Roman mythology it taught the romans to poor tar on christians and burn them to death, but it was done because evil men with power wanted to keep people under control.
 
Laying in supplies...

Sorry I took awhile to respond, was out getting some hershey syrup and a fresh bag of feathers. Probably something subliminal, hmmm? Nice post.. fill(can I shorten that?)....and you are certainly correct in that any God worth his/her salt ought to have some joyful lustiness (and a sense of humor)to their credit! When I look at the world I see so many things that are wonderous and of a spiritual nature, and it takes a few minutes for my natural pessimism to steal me back to my normally suspicous mood. Great point about the 10 commandments....hope you read that earlier post that postulated some of the reasons (other than divine intervention) for the development of them. Regardless of their origin, and the many other codes and rules that we have developed as a species, it still seems eminently reasonable to me that you need to apply some common sense to each moral situation and decision you face as an adult of the dominant species on the planet. I hope I don't sound like I'm advocating vigilantic behavior, because that is certainly NOT my goal or intent. We have a fairly well organized society that allows certain behaviors routinely, and disapproves of others. But within that framework there is ...variation. Nearly infinite, due to our ever expanding numbers. It is these "gray" areas that become the subject of debate and conjecture, and it is in one of these that we find ourselves due to our "fascination" (who coined that phrase...very apt) with tickling and its results. Mainstream religion should be fairly tolerant of us, I feel, as we are an inoffensive bunch mainly, who will keep to ourselves and recruit the fringes of society quietly for the most part...unless you tick us off, in which case we send WallStreet to your house...lol! 🙄 Q
 
Sheesh! I've been gone for a few days, and look what's happened to a thread I thought was winding down.

I suppose I'm "mainstream", whatever that means. Like Q (and, I suspect, Hal), I'm a lapsed Catholic. Unlike them (correct me if I'm mis-stating your views), I don't regard religion as a racket. It looks more to me like a typical human way to muddle through. No society can function without agreed-upon rules, and sanctions for breaking them. "The Revealed Word of God" is a better justification than most, because it's easy to understand.

Seems to me that Q and Hal take a utility approach toward good and evil - prosurvival = good, antisurvival = evil. R. A. Heinlein expressed the same in some of his books (and here we intersect with another thread that Q started.) There's a good deal of merit in that approach. The trick is in defining "prosurvival."

Remember the Cold War slogan, "Better dead than Red"? This society had a choice - resist aggression at the risk of nuclear war, or do away with the risk of war by lying down and letting the bastards nibble us to death. History shows that we made the right choice, though I think we've become too much like our enemies in the course of the struggle.

Domestically, we've bilged it. Healthy societies have no trouble resisting barbarism. These past 30 years or so, the barbs have taken up residence in the centers of power and influence, and have cooked and eaten the weakest of us. Pat Moynihan viewed with alarm the social pathology he saw in the 1960's. It's much worse now - our lords and masters have concealed the extent of the problem by (in Moynihan's words) "defining deviancy downward." What do we worry about instead? Smoking, Political Correctness, seat belt usage, urban sprawl, SPOTTED OWLS, for God's sake.

Bottom line - we've entered a new age of Puritanism, and there's plenty wrong with our society to justify it. Unfortunately, the New Puritans are worried about the wrong things.

Strelnikov
 
Heinlein..

You know, you SOUND like him Strel...seriously. Your writing patterns are similar to his style...fess up..you ghost wrote the whole bunch of "his' novels didn't you, sly dog! Or perhaps Mr H didn't die and is merely hiding out here on the TMF masquerading as the low key yet ever subtle Strelnikov!! Sorry...lol...too much TV tonight, a real bad influence. Your name does lend itself to a spylike atmosphere though Strel...very ColdWar-ish. As for the miscreants running the religions of the world, yup...close enough! Every time I drive past an ornate Church/Temple/Whatever all I see is money that was intended for another purpose being used for the purpose of generating more money that will be used for purposes it wasn't intended for et al. These monolithic structures represent the flaws I have such a problem with in organized religion. They should be well built unadorned facilities with utilitarian purposes in their design. The fact that they are useless other than as a monument to the men that run them is a blight upon the land indeed! Let them pound the pulpit and raise the Torah and go through all their rituals ad nauseum, it still reeks in my view of blasphemy of the highest order. The trappings of religion have superseded the purpose and the world spins along merrily acknowledging nothing! We have spoken a bit of "evil" , and this smacks mightily of it to me. Each member of an organized religion that sanctifies its goals by contributing time and money to it blindly hovers nearer to "evil' than the most sadistic tickler in here by far in my lowly opinion! Spotted owls be damned...we can recreate them whenever we choose to apply the resources to do so...but the damage to the fabric of our society is a far larger rip and will need extensive mending. Religion is NOT a good needle and thread for this purpose. It scares the bejeebers out of me to think of todays "religous" leaders in any policy making positions. In terms of "pro-survival", we should cut some posts, heat the tar and pluck some chicken feathers, because the fools ruling the congregations are worthy indeed of this ancient judgement. True religion isn't going to be found inside of the very monuments that ridicule the actual function of a vital religion, but rather in places we would least suspect and likely not seek it! Again, only my opinion, but I feel as though it follows the old hacksaw normally applied to art: "I know it when I see it..." It appears in the woman feeding a neighbors kids while the parents work 2 jobs to finance an education for them...it pops up when someone actually takes the time to make sure that help is gotten for someone or something that needs it NOW....it rears its stern visage when it confronts evil, and strikes it DOWN without comment or glory needed or wanted. Thats religion...and the devil take what is passed off in its name..... Q
 
Spotted Owl spotted

Strelnikov,

You're right in many of your points, IMO (also about me as one who abandoned Catholicism 30 years ago). Just a few objections: The justification about agreed-upon rules with "The Revealed Word of God" implies the obvious necessity of believing in God. A written secular law doesn't, it's compulsory for all members of a society.

And the definition of "prosurvival" shouldn't be ceded to fanatics of any religion, political movements, or race. An anti-communist witch-hunting like McCarthy's campaign reminds me too much of the medieval Catholic Inquisition. This was a pro-survival intention perverted into being quite the contrary. Real strong societies don't need such perversions, the very fact of its existence tells us something about one of the actual American weaknesses: Puritanism, and the people's gullibility about any religious issues. Any politician showing off his own religiosity suddenly gains so much credibility in USA.

Something like a 'purge' is very improbable to happen in the secularized European countries. Nobody cares much about his/her religious upbringing, guilt may only be established in ultra-orthodox families (it may happen more frequently in the very strong Catholic-oriented countries like Italy or Poland). I'm not judging values here, just stating a fact.

And that may well be the reason why you won't find too many "mainstream" opinions here on the forum. Members of the tickling community have either accepted their own personal kinky streak and therefore abandoned the more puritan point of view, or they are absent because they turned towards religion in some kind of purge. People like Scott returning to the community to preach their newly-found opinions against tickling are very rare, and provide evidence for a deep psychological problem. His recent absence and his petty actions about the chat-room are further circumstantial evidence for this.

You're quite right to stress the wrong directions of Neo-Puritanism. As a pipe smoker who has recently visited California I can only affirm this… And I like my Spotted Owl best with a little Madeira Sauce, please! 😀

I guess I should have stuck to my original refusal concerning participation in religious discussions, they really get me going…

Oh BTW Strelnikov, have you ever researched the etymology of your name? In Russian, 'strel' means arrow. 'Strelnikov' means 'one of the arrow-men' (Anglo-Europeans would say 'Bowmen'). Keep shooting your arrows, please! 😉
 
Sorry I'm Late...

My car's been misbehaving, so I haven't had time to post a well-considered response until now, but here goes:

Hal: You're spot on about the difference between the true meanings of God, Faith, and Church. My feeling on religion has always been thus: All of the world's varied religions are like signposts with arrows painted upon them. At the core of practically every religion I know of is the command that one should treat one's fellow humans with respect, mercy, and kindness. All of those signposts then point to the same destination, even if they take different paths. The problem arises when people begin attaching myth and dogma to the code of orderly behavior, and then it becomes a problem, as everyone is too busy arguing about what color the sign should be and in what typeface the directions should be printed that they spend all their time hitting each other with their signs and never get around to following them. It gets even worse when the flawed humans in charge add power, money, and politics to the mix. As a result, modern religion reminds me of Gandhi's opinion of Western Civilization: "It would be a very good thing if someone actually tried it." I mean, Christianity has failed at the simplest request Jesus made of his followers. He said that when you pray, you shouldn't just repeat memorized words that have been ground into lifeless gray powder through generations of rote repetition, with every last bit of true emotion drained from them. He said you should improvise from the heart, and whatever you came up with would be good because it was what you truly felt. He then laid down a little jazz riff of a prayer as an example. It began "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." and the Church preceded to take it and memorize it and grind it into lifeless gray powder through generations of rote repetition until the words had no feeling left in them. If the Church screwed up something that basic, how can we trust them to get complex morality right?

I also don't feel that religion is the place to look for morality for reasons closer to the thoughts of Neitzche. This is the Cliff Notes version that grossly oversimplifies things, but there's Master Morality and Slave Morality. People with Master Morality do the right thing simply because they know that it's the right thing to do. People with Slave Morality do the right thing only because they crave reward for doing so, or fear punishment for failing to do so. As such, it isn't truly being moral because you're acting out of the selfish motives of greed and cowardice. With promises of Heaven and warnings of Hell, the Church advocates Slave Morality. If you can only get people to do something through bribes and threats, then you've got to question if you're really on the right track. Only people with Slave Morality impose their will on others, in order to convince themselves that they are right.

I agree with your lines about the Ground Staff, and I offer a similar idea: To paraphrase Dennis Miller: "If God has a problem with someone, believe me, He'll let them know. God is Sherrif Andy and you are Barney Fife, so keep your bullet in your shirt pocket, okay?"

As for the nature of God, I'm content to leave that a mystery. I've said before that to name something is an attempt to exert power over it. I am neither so insecure nor egotistical as to try to impose my will on whatever force is responsible for creation. No concept we invent as limited mortals could ever be sufficient to fully describe such a force, and I'm inclined to believe that attempts to do so are only so much fruitless tail-chasing.

qjakal & MistressMia: Thanks for the compliments. I'm blushing beneath my fur again. The Stracynski quote is oddly connected to this topic, as I've found more truth, wisdom, and inspiration in my collection of Sci-Fi and comics than I have in most of the Bible. Who says God couldn't have divinely inspired some of J. Mike's words as well?

Flatfoot: As for you considering yourself selfish for enjoying giving her a foot-rub, where is it written that you can't enjoy being altruistic? It sounds like you were giving her as much enjoyment as you got, and that's a lot more than most of the brutes who had taken advantage of her before had done. The mere fact that you intended it to be mutual absolves you of true selfishness (The Clinton variety as opposed to the Ayn Rand version). I'm reminded of a parable I heard in Church as a small boy that informed my take on sexuality today: A man dreamed that he was being shown a tour of Heaven and Hell. Both planes consisted of an enormous dining room, with people at long tables trying to eat a banquet with chopsticks. In Hell, the people tried to feed themselves, but couldn't work the chopsticks well enough, so the food kept falling out back onto the plate, never to reach their mouths. In Heaven, the only difference was that people would use their chopsticks to feed the person across the table from them, and btween the two of them, they would both get fed. I think sex should work the same way, in that you can't go into it without considering the other person. Otherwise, you'd be less selfish to use tissue paper rather than using them like tissue paper. (Onan's sin was not masturbation, but rather coitus interruptus which violated the Hebrew law requiring him to provide his late brother's childless wife with an heir.)

As for the strippers suspecting my foot-fetish, they don't suspect, they know. Most of them ask, and I respond truthfully. I further tell them that I love nothing better than giving a lady pleasure, and feet are an effective, if often overlooked, avenue for doing this, either through a massage or a tickle. To be honest, just referring to the visit I had Friday night, I got a bigger buzz from the warm fuzzy feeling I got giving a foot rub to a rather unhappy girl who relished 5 minutes of caring and pampering than I did from another girl who professed to possess a foot-fetish like my own. While Roxy let me tickle her, suck her toes, and not only did the same to me but stroked my John Thomas through my jeans with her bare foot; any erotic high I had is eclipsed by the memory of Cally's face, sad expression replaced by a beatific smile as she snuggled up against the couch, sighing happily and only half-joking that she should be paying me to receive such attention.

I'd go on further, but it's late here in NJ and I've no desire to be found asleep in front of the monitor tomorrow morning.
 
AARGH! It's late, I have to get up early, and f**king AOL just dumped me and blew away my reply. Starting over - will respond at greater length when time permits. Meanwhile, this will move the thread back up to the top. <G>

I still won't concede that there's no merit in organized religion. My grandfather was a Christian gentleman whose faith was integral with his church membership (Evangelical and Reformed - Hal knows them.) He saw no conflict. I'll defer to his judgement - he had far longer than I to think it over.

Q is right about the "Edifice Complex" common to large organizations. Still, the world would be poorer without Notre Dame, or the Sistine Chapel, or the Grand Mosque. These places are monuments to the faith of those who built them, and are part of the common treasury of mankind.

Religious believers in positions of power don't frighten me. They look a lot like my neighbors here in the Bible Belt, who are generally decent people. Look at what we've gotten from letting the ungodly intimidate the rest of us into letting them run things. This country worked a lot better when everyone in mainstream society at least PRETENDED that they followed the traditional religion-based rules. Again, that's the beauty of the Word of God as the basis of law - easy to understand, and admits of no argument. (Incidentally, a statement very like the last sentence was part of the 1871 German Constitution.) On the other hand, I understand Hal's revulsion against fanaticism.

Finally, Q, sorry but I'm not RAH in disguise. I've been reading his books for 40 years though. And Hal, I chose the name deliberately. My personal choice is a 65 lb draw recurve bow ,and while I'm nowhere near tournament grade, I can generally stick an arrow in what I shoot at.

Strelnikov
 
The Flip Side

This time, I'll argue the flip side of my previous posts. There are indeed cases of religion-as-racket, and they're usually easy to spot. Common to all is an exploitive relationship between Spiritual Leader and follower that's usually absent from the old standard religions. I'll illuminate with an example.

I've been going to science fiction conventions for over 25 years, and know people who have been doing so for much longer. During the 1950's, one author expressed the view many times in conversation that religion was the last great unconquered frontier for getting rich without working. He proceeded to start one of his own (you know who I mean, and which religion.)

A long-time woman friend (from childhood) married an adherent of that religion at age 25. I was a guest in their home afterward, but never felt comfortable. She seemed happy, and the guy was a successful businessman who could support her in style, but the controlling aspects turned me off (this from someone raised in the Catholic Church!) The whole enterprise, on close examination, had all of the hallmarks of a racket. Her brother, who loved her dearly, tried to talk her out of marrying for the same reasons. I lost contact with her within a year after her marriage - there didn't seem to be any point to staying in touch anymore.

(Briefly back on topic. She was 5 ft 4 in tall, about 120 lb, with long dark hair, brown eyes, and a great tan in summer. I managed to tickle her, always on the feet, about once a year while we were ages 10 to 25. She was a silent laugher.)

More recently, the former center-right administration in Germany used the anti-Nazi laws to shut down the religion's German operation. The religion has high profile adherents in Hollywood who are chummy with (and contribute big money to) various Democrat politicians. They managed to get the US State Department to Officially View With Alarm. The official German response was instructive. They said, in paraphrase, "This is an internal matter, of no concern to the US Government" (or, to quote our colleague WallStreet, "Mind your own @#$%ing business.") They went on to say, "The US tradition is one of political liberty and religious toleration. Ours is totalitarian. You can afford to tolerate XXX. We can't."

I'm hoping that we can pull Hal back into this thread to comment on the last.

Finally, re. MK's argument that Slave Morality is encouraged by organized religion: I'm not so sure. A person whose faith is integral to his personality will choose the moral course because, in Luther's words, "I can do no other." That sounds like MK's definition of Master Morality to me.

Strelnikov
 
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Scientology

Strelnikov, you have obviously been deceived by Scientology's clever propaganda actions, concerning the official German reaction, just like so many American politicians. As I said in a previous post, the mere mentioning of the word "religion" lends so much credibility in the eyes of the American public.

Scientology has not been outlawed or forbidden. The German Supreme Federal Court only ruled that Scientology has got no right to call itself a "religion" or "religious institution". It has considered this organization to be simply a commercial company, and is therefore not entitled to all the tax exemptions and constitutional privileges granted to religious institutions. No country in this world would accept interference from foreign politicians in these matters, and the US government would be the first to cry "foul" if any non-American politician would try this.

And the quotation about Germany being 'totalitarian' is false. Maybe the official's English left some room for misinterpretations, but Germany is a democratic state with free elections, and one of the most liberal countries in Europe. We have only just had our share of totalitarian leaders and organizations, and we will not allow Scientology to violate the constitutional rights of their members at whim. Tolerance has a boundary where it's in conflict with human and constitutional rights.

If I could, I would chase Scientology to hell and further. My former neighbor's daughter used to be in their fangs, and they ruined the whole family with incredibly criminal methods. Nobody could help them, because of Scientology's clever lawyers. I wouldn't have believed the enormous extent of this organization's power and their cruelty, if I hadn't witnessed it myself. The Mafia is a harmless boy-scout group compared with them! I was sometimes howling with helpless rage! I'm not speaking of the ordinary Scientology members, they are victims themselves. I mean the upper echelon, their lawyers, and their well-organized secret service.

Sorry, this topic never fails to enrage me.
 
Zum Teufel!

Hal, I was reconstructing the article from memory, and unfortunately I suffer from CRAFT (Can't Remember A F!@#ing Thing.) I remembered it as the German Government putting these people out of business. If it was instead a matter of denying them the status of a religion and treating them like any other profit-making business, I stand corrected. That's what they are, after all, and as I said, their founder never made a secret of it except to the sheep he was trying to shear.

If you will re-read my post, I think you will see that I agree with you regarding this particular racket. I saw the same things happening to my friend as you saw with your young neighbor. So did her brother, and it disturbed him greatly, but like you he could do nothing.

I never said that modern Germany was totalitarian. My sense of the German official's comment was that he felt (1) Americans could tolerate Nazi wannabe's among us because our tradition is (mostly) one of political liberty and religious toleration, and (2) because of recent history, Germans could not and would not. And you're right, German domestic policy is none of our f!@#ing business.

I'm not naming these crooks because they use lawyers like attack dogs. You're beyond their reach in Germany. I'm not, and neither is the Forum. I have no desire to enrich a lawyer defending me in court - so, once again, free speech takes a hit.

Boy, we're WAY off topic here! Can we talk about baby oil for a while?

Strelnikov
 
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Hal

I like the idea of deprogramming cultists by tickling. It might have worked on my friend, she was ticklish enough. We often talk about "tickling the s@#t out of her." The stated beliefs of the organization under discusion certainly fit that description.

Maybe there's a story here. Hal? Max? Captain Spalding? What do you think?

Strelnikov
 
Never really OT...

See? It never takes us long to find our way back to our little facination, does it? Waiting for the sign up sheet for the "De-Programming Ticklers" to pop up, so I can submit my application. It's only fair that we 3 be given extra consideration since we surfaced this rather novel idea, yes? 🙂 Q
 
It's been a while since anyone posted here, so I'll toss this idea out for consideration:

The best trick the Devil ever pulled was to make decent people think he doesen't exist.

Any takers?

Strelnikov
 
Guilt and religion & guilt, oh my!!

Wow! What an interesting thread this has been. From my own standpoint, it's a VERY potent question. In my life, guilt was always an art form. We worked VERY hard at it ("I feel guilty" "NO, I feel GUILTIER") so my perspective on guilt may be a bit skewed.

Religion? No offense to anyone, but I always kinda felt organized religion was a way for a lot of people who feel guilty to get together, compare guilty notes, absolve each other, and then move on to their lives.That being said, I must clarify one thing. I am a very spiritual person, I DO believe in God, I just think our Creator is a whole lot bigger than anything we can imagine, and if I for one moment think he/she/it is at ALL interested in whether I was tickled last Saturday or not, I am immediately belittling the power of that entity.

We were given the tools to make whatever sort of life on this planet we cared to make. Our God/Creator/Supreme Being/Great Spirit loves us enough to give us the respect and the trust to manage this little rock we were placed on. In my opinion (and I have one because I have the power to reason, as do most of us!!) the Golden Rule is all we need. Problem is, it's SO basic, we've lost sight of it.

Off my soapbox, and thanks for reading!!!
 
A Wandering We Go...

lol...I was just rereading the entire thread, and it's amazing where we wander to at times! Hi hawkikim, welcome to The Monkey House! Don't know if you saw my post on the other thread, or just "wandered" in, but either way, happy to hear from you! You've restated a general opinion that most of the posters on the TMF seem to share regarding organized religion....which may reflect the general population % on the issue, or may be the result of our being a special "minority". Tough to tell with a limited statistical base such as this to work with, as well as the skewed figures that are available to the public for general consumption, but I feel we have a higher than average % of people with an incredibly similar view on this subject in general. Perhaps one of our more mathematically inclined posters has "harder" data than I can surface as to the % of people in the general population that share this view on religion, but I gotta go with my gut and attach a link to this view and believe it's a result of our own internal mechanisms. We have all learned to deal with guilt, both associated with our fascination with tickling, and other types of issues as well. Perhaps we can attract a few more posters who could briefly state agreement or not with that general hypothesis I set forth above. I was curious when we began as to how others handle the problems/issues that this fetish intensifies, and where it placed them in the religious hierarchy......as usual it's reassuring to see that others have struggled mightily with these emotions as well as myself. I've gone through phases of introspection searching for clues to my passionate response to tickling and an answer for the intensity it produces, but I seem to always produce more questions than answers...lol..which makes my little bald head hurt for a few days, and leaves me even more confused afterwards! Religious considerations aside, we seem to be a fairly goodnatured group (for sadistic merciless tickle fiends) with a definite set of standards pertaining to what we perceive as "evil" and immoral in general.

As for your postulation my computer friend Mr Strelnikov, could it be that rather than the Devil convincing them he doesn't exist, they have merely chosen the easy path themselves by adopting the view that there is no definitive evil being working towards mankinds downfall on an eternal basis? Personally, if I am a semi-omnipotent ( lol....just made that up special for you, Strel!) being of a vengeful nature possessing an in depth knowledge of mankinds history and tendencies, I think I would "advertise" my existence a bit more explicitly, and count on our never ending ability to rationalize and delude ourselves to make me a cult figure with tremendous influence! But, seeing as I have only a "mortal" point of view, I may not be on the right track for a long term (eternal) strategy. Q
 
I originally started this chain of thought to rebutt Scott, but he ran away from a forum full of people disagreeing with him like a little left-handed girl before I could post it. I think Strel's query makes where I was going with the thought relevant:

You say that God disapproves of your love of tickling. Why, then, is this fetish a part of you? Did God put it there? If God condemns it, what would He gain by putting in you? Did He create you with a fetish just to damn you? If so, then He is an illogical and capricious deity, and that means that there is no hope for any of us no matter how much we adhere to morality. A God so inconsistent might damn all of humanity for failing to wear purple on Thursdays, which makes as much sense as punishing someone for the characteristics He has placed in them. I look around and I see a world too well-ordered and too brilliantly designed to be the product of a God as self-contradictory as that.

Did the Devil make the tickling fetish a part of you? If you answer yes, consider the implications: You are saying that the Devil can create as well as God. You are implying that the Devil can create things that God doesn't want, and override God's will that such things should not be. You said that Lucifer's crime was wanting to be greater than God. Does it not occur to you that by believing that the Devil walks the earth doing evil even though God supposedly cast him into the pit for all eternity, and that he can alter God's creations in defiance of His will, then you are giving the Devil what he wanted. You are implying that the Devil is more powerful than God. Satan, as an angel of limted presence and power, defies God and is cast down and banished to Hell forever. Except he is then somehow free to tempt Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, thus tainting humanity seemingly irreversibly. (Never mind the fact that if God had simply told Adam & Eve about good & evil in the first place, none of that would have happened...) Humanity becomes so tainted from the Devil's influence, that God is forced to create a Great Flood to exterminate all of mankind except Noah and his family. (While we're at this point, am I the only one who questions the morality of a God who drowns millions of children in the Flood and has no problem with the incest required among Noah's brood to repopulate the Earth?) So, with humanity replenished from the moral stock of Noah and kin, humanity is okay, right? Wrong, because the Devil is apparently able to corrupt God's work yet again, and God is required to assume mortal form and come down into His creation to sort things out. So, Jesus Christ dies on the cross, and humanity's sin is forgiven. (Despite a lifetime of Catholic indoctrination, I have yet to hear a clear, compelling explanation of the direct cause-and-effect relationship at work there, or for that matter how God was able to have the Virgin Mary born completely free of original sin yet is unwilling or incapable of doing the same for us if the Devil's corruption bothers Him so much...) Surely, after all that effort to correct the Devil's influence, we must be okay now, right? Nope, because apparently mankind is more sinful than ever and the Devil/God scorecard reads 3 and 0. You would have us believe that one of God's disrespectful subordinates has somehow become just as omnipresent, just as omniscient, and just as omnipotent as God, able to undo the Creator's will at every turn. Why do you give God so little credit as to imagine that you are not *precisely* what He wanted you to be, or that He is somehow unable or unwilling to prevent your design from being subverted?

Another thought about this Devil chap. You say that he is working constantly to oppose, thwart, and subvert God's will. This, apparently, is why he is so eager to tempt humans into doing evil. Then, the souls of those who have disobeyed God are sent to Hell, where they suffer an eternity of torment as punishment. This fate, you tell us, is supposed to frighten us into obeying God. All right then, think about that scenario. The Devil's entire existence serves to punish those who break God's laws, and to serve as a deterrent towards breaking those laws. Is that the behavior of someone who is supposed to be God's most dangerous enemy? The Devil is still doing God's will. There are many and varied sources which write about Satan, but they all agree about punishing sinners as being his primary activity. There are no accounts that speak of him rewarding the souls of sinners for turning towards him and away from God. The Devil is not God's adversary, he is the warden of God's penal system, who frequently conducts sting operations.

That's entirely too many contradictions for me to believe in the Devil according to the commonly accepted version. Ayn Rand said in "Atlas Shrugged" that there is no such thing as contradiction: Re-examine your premises and decide which one is wrong. Which premise do you believe: That a fallen angel has developed abilities equal to or greater than God's own, that he constantly does a bang-up job of fouling all that God has wrought, and God either failed to forsee and prevent this, is unable to stop it, or permits it to occur unopposed; or rather that the Devil is merely a metaphor?

Do I believe that demons exist?: Yes.
Do I believe that demons are horned beings dwelling on an alternate plane filled with lakes of fire and tormented human souls?: No.
I believe that demons are elements of human nature. They are Cowardice, Ingorance, Selfishness, and Weakness. If you live your life striving to avoid allowing these four states of mind to motivate you, then what do you have to fear from the temptations of any supernatural physical Devil?
 
The devil is not so devilish...

IMO, the devil is only a human creation, just like all the 'Holy Scriptures'. Why?

Humans tend to need a scapegoat for everything that went wrong. Being only human, it's quite natural that we want an explanation for the evil within all of us. Just as we need an explanation for the creation itself, because we can't understand the whole beauty of it.

In earlier times, God was responsible for the sun and the rain, for thunder and lightning, and for birth and death. Nowadays a more metaphysical approach to God is quite common in most religions, but we still blame Him for the creation of all things. Our lack of understanding the natural elements has been replaced by our ignorance about eternity and infinity. Still, He's the scapegoat for those things we can't understand.

But God is meant to be the positive, creative force in our universe, and as we all have experienced, positive forces are always accompanied by negative, destructive ones. So what is the negative equivalent for God?

We all have discovered something evil within ourselves sometimes. If God is responsible for the good in us, who's responsible for the evil part? Wouldn't life be much easier if we could find someone we can pin that responsibility to?

That's where the devil comes in handy. If he exists, we're not really responsible for our own destructive, evil streaks; he is the one, not we ourselves! The churches and religions found this explanation useful, too, it seems. They only had to describe the consequences of our evil deeds like the most dreadful torture chamber we can imagine, and to pretend that they, and they alone, can save us from this hell. That is how we created the devil as our scapegoat.

It's interesting that some religions don't accept this concept of evil. In Hinduism, Brahma is the creating force, Shiva the destructive one, and Vishnu represents the preserving force. They are not competing with each other, instead they are the three forces which exist all over the world. Shiva is not an evil god, or something like the devil. But we all can observe that things are created, then existing for a while, and finally destroyed or vanished. The other two forces couldn't exist without Shiva, only together they keep the world running as it is. Many Hindu gods have good AND evil streaks within them, just like human beings. Ganesha (the elephant-shaped god), for example, is the god of wisdom as well as the god of thieves.

Buddhism is the only religion I know of which doesn't need a god. It doesn't shove the responsibility for our fate to some good or evil forces. It accepts the duality of good and evil, even within ourselves. How could you detect good if there wasn't anything evil in this world? Man himself is responsible for his own fate; by action or passivity, he decides about the nature of his rebirth.

Seeing the concept 'Devil' in this more global context makes him a rather helpless, if not ridiculous figure. A spook conjured up by our ancestors to keep us within the limits set by themselves. A scapegoat for our evil thoughts and deeds. And a damn excuse for our own natural, human weaknesses!
 
40-Love!

Sorry...been watching the U.S. Open too long today. Some great points in the last couple posts guys! The examination of the "Prince Of Evil" from a few perspectives, both as an internal manifestation and the "Sgt. At Arms" of the Lord. Glad someone finally brought Hinduism and its principles in, because they are certainly a fresh look at the whole good/evil question from a different perspective! Shiva the Destroyer is accorded fear and respect, but probably no more than any of the pantheon. Zelazny did a novel that featured the Hindu gods prominently and quite aptly I thought.

I'm starting to think HalTickling is a teacher somewhere,..lol...you have a wealth of knowledge at hand with a great deal of subtext tossed in apparently effortlessly! We make our own heaven and hells indeed, and differentiating them may be the whole trick to where you "land"! Very individualistic and I like the concept of asumption of responsibility, something I long have felt that people in general give up far too easily to organized religions. It would be comforting to have someone/thing to blame my evil thoughts and deeds upon, and even more so to have them forgiven in an absoltute manner, which are the main perks of most religions, but I have a difficult time buying into either idea as valid. Those "evil" thoughts and rare bad deeds(really...getting better...I swear!), are a product of my own mental processes and I accept responsibility for them...not graciously, but grudgingly. If there is to be true repentance and absolution for them, it needs to come from within to be sincere and deserved, in my opinion.

MadKalnod, as always, your passion on the subject shines through clearly! Good points about reconciling the "totality" of our beings as a weak point in most scripture. We are lumpy, imperfect hunks (and hunkettes) of clay indeed! But accepting the flaws is the only way to appreciate the virtues, in my view at least. The world would be a sad little vanilla place without some of the variations that are perceived by many as "flaws". I may not like ALL of them, but they do jazz the joint up a bit! 🙂

That being said, if we are indeed the "Captains Of Our Own Souls", then WHY is it so difficult to change our internal emotional makeup? Shouldn't we be able to apply our vaunted logic to what we perceive as flaws and correct it/them? Do we lack discipline? Knowledge? Sufficent motivation? What elements are preventing us from becoming the superior beings that we envision truly good people to be? Why can't we shed the fetishes and vices that plague us and emerge as scrubbed clean holy warriors who can walk the world as enlightened happy souls? Could there be a purpose to these supposedly evil traits? Will this thread ever solve them? Q
 
MadKalnod said:
ran away from a forum full of people disagreeing with him like a little left-handed girl before I could post it.

A little left-handed girl?
 
left...

A very old phrase. Dates from the time when left handedness was seen as a mark of evil.

Myriads
 
Hal, regarding religions that don't need a God, the Unitarians in this country believe that there is, at most, one God.

MK, you're using a straw man argument. Consider also the following possibility: God created each of us as a blank slate. Various things, including temptations, are written on the slate in the course of our lives. God has shown us the way to personal salvation by His revealed word in (fill in the name of religious text here.) My Roman Catholic religious teachers said that we achieve salvation through faith, and we achieve faith through a triumph of the will.* I parted ways with the Catholic Church 30 years ago, but I won't disagree with that.

Q, throughout life, we're faced with choices, some of greater import than others. We choose the course our lives take, and some of those choices are in fact evil (no, I don't count "tickle/don't tickle" as one of those.) There may be nothing we can do about our own basic nature - our susceptibility to temptation - but we can choose to make moral choices despite temptation. It's all a matter of taking personal responsibility.

I like your notion that people have taken the easy path, of denying that there exists an Adversary dedicated to our downfall. I'll take it a step further. The advocates of evil in our society are those who have taken the easy path, who reject all forms of discipline, and who denounce the validity of all objective standards and the sanctions required to enforce them. Because they are unwilling to make choices, they consider that we are all incapable of making choices. We are all victims. No one is responsible, and no one must be held responsible.

I take some comfort in the hope of change. There is still a remembrance of higher values, some determination to return to them, and some signs that the public mood is beginning to support doing so. If that determination can crystallize and manifest itself, the prospects for success are good: Whatever else present society may be able to do, it will be completely unable to defend itself.

Strelnikov





* Yes Hal, the choice of words is deliberate. This is where the bastards cribbed it from.
 
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