Tickling vs Pain

[Fred46]

...God, and to think I was going to tell my sister about this forum. She loves tickling but that clip would give her nightmares.

I think it would be best to leave that kind of thing off this forum. This forum is for tickling. There are many places where the BDSM stuff would be more appropriate. Redmage, I humbly and respectfully ask and urge you to remove that material.

susannah, I hope your sister will pay us a visit, and use the post headings to avoid anything inappropriate. I think she would really enjoy it, with just a little care to avoid the pitfalls. You're not going to bail on us, are you?

Fred46

 

[Redmage]

I think it would be best to leave that kind of thing off this forum. This forum is for tickling. There are many places where the BDSM stuff would be more appropriate. Redmage, I humbly and respectfully ask and urge you to remove that material.

With equal respect, I decline. As the moderators pointed out on the thread where the clip was posted and elsewhere, this forum is not only for tickling.

There are a lot of things on this forum, both tickling and non-tickling, that some people don't like. That's OK - no one has to watch anything that they don't like. The clip I posted is clearly labelled and is ringed round about with warnings telling people what they're getting into. I respectfully suggest that anyone who decides to view it after reading all that has no one but themselves to blame if they don't like it.

 

[drew70]

If that's really you in that clip then I hope that one day the woman you tortured kicks your sadistic ass. That's really brave and noble of you to torture a helpless woman. Must give you a real sense of putting us in our place. If you have a question with something Drew said, shouldn't you be asking him?.

LOL. He can't ask me because he's supposed to be ignoring me. Just do what I did and place him on ignore. He'll never understand nor care why it's wrong, and he's just not worth getting upset over.

For what it's worth, you can feel safe telling your sister about this forum. Most of the folks here are awesome. She's over eighteen, right?

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Way i look at it, if it's two people (or More) who are consenting on the activity, then it's really their business, and they have every right to do it. Considering we're a fetish community, i sometimes wonder when these threads come allong trying to nail people to the wall for having another type of fetish then the one we all share. I mean, i know that fetishes can vary a great degree, and i deffinitly don't think i'd enjoy watching the clip, but then some people think we're sick for having a tickling fetish, so isn't it a bit hypocritical to call others sick for enjoying something else?

 

[isabeau]

I feel that NASCAR racing is a barbaric sport that people watch partly for the rush of watching people crash and burn. I do not approve of NASCAR, hockey, or tackle football because of the violence and danger. I don't feel the same about skydiving because there aren't a bunch of people watching, waiting for some poor slob to die. I don't think it's a good idea, though.

Fred46

i'm wondering how nascar got into this discussion. i watch nascar and i do not watch for the people crashing and burning. in fact everytime i see a crash i cry out, i cant help it, hoping that the person is ok.

to get back to the thread, again i must say to each his or her own. i'm not for pain myself, but i dont have the right to judge. and i suppose the man does get off on it as well as the woman involved. it all boils down to this, if a certain clip offends you, dont watch it.

isabeau

 

[drew70]

Way i look at it, if it's two people (or More) who are consenting on the activity, then it's really their business, and they have every right to do it. Considering we're a fetish community, i sometimes wonder when these threads come allong trying to nail people to the wall for having another type of fetish then the one we all share. I mean, i know that fetishes can vary a great degree, and i deffinitly don't think i'd enjoy watching the clip, but then some people think we're sick for having a tickling fetish, so isn't it a bit hypocritical to call others sick for enjoying something else?

You're adopting the same shallow posture as Mimi. Read my first post. I don't object to other fetishes as long as those other fetishes don't involve inflicting excessive pain and/or injury on other people. I acknowledge that some people get off on receiving pain. Even a lot of pain. I feel sorry for such individuals that have to receive such abuse in order to achieve a Shangri La. My heart goes out to them.

But a man who gets off on inflicting pain on women? Scum of the earth, lowest of the low. You say this is hypocritical. Bullshit, I say. I'm a man who digs being tickled by women. That's my fetish. I object to men hurting women. Apples and oranges. Where's the hypocrisy? Or are you saying that if I have any fetish at all, it's hypocritical for me to denounce any other fetish whatsoever? Let's remember that pedophilia and necrophilia are both fetishes, not to mention those who get off eating other peoples shit. Just because some people label us tickle folk as "sick and twisted" doesn't mean that there aren't behaviors out there that actually qualify for the label.

 

[lk70]

I don't object to other fetishes as long as those other fetishes don't involve inflicting excessive pain and/or injury on other people.

Saying "I don't object....as long as..." means you do object. And you know what? No one gives a damn.

 

[Redmage]

Saying "I don't object....as long as..." means you do object. And you know what? No one gives a damn.

It also appears that Drew has decided that he gets to declare what is "excessive," rather than the people who are actually involved.

Another interesting notion that I've picked up from the quote-backs is this idea Drew seems to have that men who enjoy giving masochists what they like are somehow evil. It's a mystery whom he expects masochists to play with; I suppose he might simply patronize and pity them.

As near as I can tell, he hangs this opprobrium only on male sadists who play with women. I haven't heard anything about female sadists and male masochists.

i'm wondering how nascar got into this discussion. i watch nascar and i do not watch for the people crashing and burning.

It came in because I was wondering how Fred feels about common sports in which people are often injured. He's essentially argued that anything that has a risk involved with it shouldn't be something that people do or watch for fun, and that the people who do enjoy such things must enjoy them because others get injured.

At least he's consistently intolerant. That's more than I can say for some on this thread.

it all boils down to this, if a certain clip offends you, dont watch it.

We'd have a happier society if more people heeded that advice. Unfortunately it's not nearly as much fun as self-righteousness.

 

[susannah355]

Saying "I don't object....as long as..." means you do object. And you know what? No one gives a damn.

Excuse me, but just who the hell are you to speak for everybody? I give a damn. I grew up in an abusive household. My father beat my mother, my sister and me almost daily. And yes, it turned him on. If that kind of thing is okay with you, then I hope you too find such a man. You deserve him. But don't you dare presume to speak for me!

 

[susannah355]

I think it would be best to leave that kind of thing off this forum. This forum is for tickling. There are many places where the BDSM stuff would be more appropriate. Redmage, I humbly and respectfully ask and urge you to remove that material.

susannah, I hope your sister will pay us a visit, and use the post headings to avoid anything inappropriate. I think she would really enjoy it, with just a little care to avoid the pitfalls. You're not going to bail on us, are you?

Fred46

Fred, you are a doll. No, I'm not going to bail. Every internet forum seems to have one or two Neanderthals who think its manly to abuse women. I've done as Drew suggested, and put him on ignore.

 

[lk70]

Excuse me, but just who the hell are you to speak for everybody? I give a damn. I grew up in an abusive household. My father beat my mother, my sister and me almost daily. And yes, it turned him on. If that kind of thing is okay with you, then I hope you too find such a man. You deserve him. But don't you dare presume to speak for me!

I'm very sorry to hear that Susannah. Certainly I wouldn't wish that on anyone for any reason and I'm sure normally you wouldn't either.

We're not talking about the same thing, though.

We're talking about allowing other people to live their lives the way they choose. We're talking about sexual behavior between adults where no one is unhappy and no one is forced to participate or watch.

Not that anyone gives a damn about what I think either ( ), but I have found I'm much happier exploring my personal freedoms and allowing others to do the same.

 

[Redmage]

I grew up in an abusive household. My father beat my mother, my sister and me almost daily. And yes, it turned him on. If that kind of thing is okay with you, then I hope you too find such a man. You deserve him.

The problem, Susannah, is that you aren't making reasonable distinctions. You are treating consenting adults as though they were abused children, unable to fend or decide for themselves, and you're assuming that anyone who enjoys SM is a child-abuser.

That approach doesn't protect the rights of a single woman or child. What that mainly does is demonstrate that you don't know very much about the people you're condemning. Learning to listen, and to grant people the right to go their own way so long as no one is harmed, will do everyone more good than this attitude.

 

[Nite_Giggler]

I'm a nurse and I've seen more than my fair share of battered women. By the time they get to me, it makes little difference whether or not the abuse is consensual. I'm required by law to file a police report. I will say that it isn't often than an abuser actually posts his work on the Internet. I guess it takes all kinds.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

You're adopting the same shallow posture as Mimi. Read my first post. I don't object to other fetishes as long as those other fetishes don't involve inflicting excessive pain and/or injury on other people. I acknowledge that some people get off on receiving pain. Even a lot of pain. I feel sorry for such individuals that have to receive such abuse in order to achieve a Shangri La. My heart goes out to them.

It's not a shallow Posture at all true. Different strokes for different fokes. I don't feel sorry for them at all, as so long as their activities are concentual and they enjoy it.

But a man who gets off on inflicting pain on women? Scum of the earth, lowest of the low. You say this is hypocritical. Bullshit, I say. I'm a man who digs being tickled by women. That's my fetish. I object to men hurting women. Apples and oranges. Where's the hypocrisy? Or are you saying that if I have any fetish at all, it's hypocritical for me to denounce any other fetish whatsoever? Let's remember that pedophilia and necrophilia are both fetishes, not to mention those who get off eating other peoples shit. Just because some people label us tickle folk as "sick and twisted" doesn't mean that there aren't behaviors out there that actually qualify for the label.

Pedophilia and Necrophilia are not fetishes. Hell, technically, tickling isn't a fetish. Eating shit your might have me on though. Red raised a good point though, if there weren't men who enjoyed inflicting pain on willing women, who would the women find to fulfill there desires? You say apples and oranges, but it's all still fruit.

 

[Redmage]

Pedophilia and Necrophilia are not fetishes. Hell, technically, tickling isn't a fetish. Eating shit your might have me on though.

Technically all of those are what psychology calls "paraphilias." Like everything in psychology, a paraphilia is considered pathological only if it damages the individual's ability to function safely and effectively in society.

The critical difference between pedophilia and sadomasochism is that pedophilia, by definition, involves people who cannot give consent. Consensual sadomasochissm does not. That's all the difference in the world, but it's one that Drew and Susannah seem constitutionally unable to grasp. Thus they keep talking about abusive situations that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

 

[drew70]

Saying "I don't object....as long as..." means you do object. And you know what? No one gives a damn.

You do, obviously, or you wouldn't be replying to my comments. Yes, I do object when certain lines are crossed. I daresay you probably do as well. We just have different lines. For example do you think it's okay for a man to break a woman's fingers on a regular basis if she's consensual? Do you think that just because a woman says its okay, a man can grind her kneecap with a belt sander? Where do YOU draw the lines, my numerical namesake?

 

[Redmage]

I'm a nurse and I've seen more than my fair share of battered women. By the time they get to me, it makes little difference whether or not the abuse is consensual. I'm required by law to file a police report.

The experience of women in SM here in the bay area is that most health-care providers drop the matter once they become convinced that any bruises or other indicia were gained in the course of consensual play. Such things are treated just as though they were injuries picked up by willing paticipation in a contact sport. That seems like a healthy attitude.

But, this is California, where attitudes toward what other people do for fun tend to be a little more open. In less tolerant areas women interested in SM often avoid seeking medical care when they need it, because of exactly the attitude you're exhibiting here. It's unfortunate that such women can't be better served.

I will say that it isn't often than an abuser actually posts his work on the Internet. I guess it takes all kinds.

If you think that what I posted is a case of an abuser "posting his work on the internet" then you're wrong in all kinds of ways. As I and others have pointed out, what I posted was a clip from a commercial website that is full to the brim with similar (and even much harsher) material. It's just one of dozens, if not hundreds, of websites that host material like that. So your first mistake is in thinking that this kind of thing is rare on the net.

Your second mistake is in thinking it's abusive. Though, to the extent that you use that word as code for "anything I find offensive" you might be right. There's LOTS of stuff on the net that a narrow mindset can find offense with.

 

[tickleublue]

re pain vs tickling

Hi
It is a matter of preference. The terms of the play should be agreed upon first with safe words or signals. One reply stated that some people were so terrified of tickle torture that they actually preferred pain! I have to say that whoever the tickler was in this case is GOOD at what they do. lol

 

[Libertine]

Consent

Some of the stuff I've seen at fetish clubs is distasteful to me, but I feel whatever two adults get up to with one another is pretty much their own affair, barring such things as internet-inspired suicide pacts or cannibalism (that case in Germany, where one man asked to be eaten by another).

Sometimes life includes things others may not like, but must tolerate in a free society. Having consensual pain inflicted also includes participating in sports like boxing and football/rugby, medical procedures like gender reassignment, less drastic types of plastic surgery and such purely cosmetic practises as earpiercing and tattooing.

Where does one draw the line?

 

[lk70]

You do, obviously, or you wouldn't be replying to my comments.

Point taken. It does bother me when others sit in judgment on something that shouldn't be any of their business. But I'll defend your right to your opinion.

Yes, I do object when certain lines are crossed. I daresay you probably do as well. We just have different lines. For example do you think it's okay for a man to break a woman's fingers on a regular basis if she's consensual? Do you think that just because a woman says its okay, a man can grind her kneecap with a belt sander? Where do YOU draw the lines, my numerical namesake?

Where I draw my own personal lines isn't the point. I'm entitled to do whatever I please in my bedroom with another adult who is also doing as he or she pleases. And so is everyone else. It really doesn't matter what we're talking about. Some people would draw the line at tickling, say it's abusive and wrong and that would leave people like us on the other side of your proposed line. You're right- we all have different lines and we're all entitled to them without judgment or censure from others.

 

[Redmage]

One reply stated that some people were so terrified of tickle torture that they actually preferred pain! I have to say that whoever the tickler was in this case is GOOD at what they do. lol

It does seem as though it'd be that way. Actually though it's just a difference in what people eroticize. I know many hardcore masochists - people who like stuff that's even beyond my limits - for whom tickling is a hard limit. It doesn't turn them on, so it doesn't give them what they need to get through it, whereas pain does.

What's really ironic, considering all the odd things that have been said about me on this thread, is that I don't tickle those people. If they don't like it, then it doesn't do anything for me.

 

[Myriads]

There seem to be a lot of things dragging this thread off into the bushes. Let's refocus.

Drew's basic argument seems to be: Men who enjoy/are aroused by inflicting pain are bad people, and we shouldn't have stuff by them here for the good of our own community.

Drew, Is that the gist of all of this?

The counter argument is: When both parties consent to the activity, no matter how extreme, it's totaly cool. People who responsibly enjoy this stuff are not that different from us and we should understand and accept them.

All the rest of the thread is various people on both sides misunderstanding, or not choosing to see the main discussion points in the other side with some folks simply choosing to support and aspect.

So lets dispose of the NASCAR stuff, the stuff about real non-consensual abusers, and focus on the idea of Consensual S/m interactions and the huge amount of questions and responsibilities that go into that.

Ok. So what is it that we are trying to decide here? That S/m material should not appear on the TMF? In the case of the clip that started this thread, I said it was cool for it to be posted. It was of a fetish model well known to the tickling community, and thus had some connective interest here. It was well labled and anyone clicking on it had a healthy idea of what they were going to get. If a sign says, "you will get hit in the face with a pie if you look in this hole", don't get all upset when you get hit in the face with a pie when you stick your noggin in the hole.

So the debate moves over to the moral debate idea of 'right' treatment of other people.

"Is it Ok to hurt a person for ones own pleasure."

That's a valid question to ask.

But there are lots of things that need defining first.

Hurt. What is this thing called hurt?

Are we to see people who like to experience pain as somehow damaged and in need of fixing? Unable to make a mindful choice on thier own about what they can and cannot do and enjoy? Must we 'protect' them from themselves?

Can one consent to being hurt?

What is considered consent?

And so on and so on. These questions and many others are what a lot of people were trying to answer from the S/m side of things. Me included.

Feel free to argue these aspects. I think such discussion is great for our community. Tickling has always been in the edge of the S/m community, and there has always been friction with it because of views on both sides, and our own odd split of playful and hardcore viewholders. Anything that lets us understand each other better is good.

Why is this debate good? It is mirroed in our community itself.

For many many people here when it comes to tickling, they fall into the class of Sadists. They enjoy inflicting a level of distress on a partner by tickling them. That's sadism at it's most basic definition. Now a measurable part of our community is not into this side of our fetish, the playful folks, and are repulsed by the sadistic side, and go "Tickling is something fun and playful! How can you make it so nasty and dark!" The sadistic folks go, "We play responsibly, loosen up, and why do you folks keep dragging kids into a sexual thing?". Thus the friction begins when we put both these cats in the same sack. Both sides need to understand the other better.

Keep the personal attacks out of it. Debate the points. Not the people.

Myriads

 

[Redmage]

Hurt. What is this thing called hurt?

I think the confusion begins when we conflate "hurt" with "harm." Pain is one thing, serious injury is another. Even injury can be a little slippery though: for many masochists a bruise from a spanking or a welt from a cane is an important part of the process. Those are undeniably injuries in the technical sense, yet they're things that SM players seek out. For myself, I always ask a play-partner if he or she wants a mark. I'm perfectly capable of leaving them or not as my partner and I choose.

Intent is everything. Pain received in SM play is both asked for and granted. In SM a bruise from a lover's spanking is entirely different emotionally and even physically from a bruise inflicted in an assault or one picked up by accident. As my wife puts it, there's pain that hurts, and there's pain that doesn't hurt.

I have a T-shirt that defines "sadist" as "One who cares enough to inflict the very best." That's amusing, but it's also true. SM isn't something you just blunder about in: it's something that you have to care enough about to learn to do it right.

SM is a sort of alchemy: it transforms things that many people view as bad into good things. Pain becomes pleasure, stress becomes love. If a person can't get an emotional handle on that process then it is often difficult for him or her to understand how anyone could work this way, but the plain fact is people do.

Are we to see people who like to experience pain as somehow damaged and in need of fixing? Unable to make a mindful choice on thier own about what they can and cannot do and enjoy? Must we 'protect' them from themselves?

No. This is an attitude that I have a LOT of trouble with. The whole idea of protecting someone from decisions they make with a clear mind is noxious, IMO. For some reason it's more often applied to women than to men - people tend to just shrug about male masochists, whereas female masochists are objects of patronizing pity. The sexism bothers me almost as much as the condescending attitudes.

Why is this debate good? It is mirroed in our community itself.

Very true. Too often I see people pretending that "it's just tickling," as though tickling weren't a serious thing. But there's a reason why even many hardcore masochists shy away from tickling: tickling can be very harsh - every bit as much so as most SM. It's something that I think we tickle-fans need to own up to.

 

[KittenToes]

How about self-inflicted pain?

Since sports were mentioned, I have to say: How about the various sorts of pain intelligent, rational adults routinely inflict on themselves? I'm not talking about things like self-harming and cutting even.

A few examples from my own experience:
I spend up to 8 hours a day dancing on my toes. When I began pointework, before my feet were toughened, I had numerous blisters but still had to put the shoes on and dance every day.I have quite a few old pairs of shoes from my student years with visible stains where blood had soaked through to the outside of the shoe. In order to become flexible, I spent hours a day forcing myself into 180-degree splits against a wall. I have danced on a broken toe, a sprained ankle, and with torn ligaments in my ribcage, smiling for the audience the entire time.

However, I don't think I'm sick or insane. I made choices and knew what I had to do in order to achieve a goal. Countless other dancers and athletes, in all disciplines, have stories similar to mine.

And how about what people routinely do in the name of fashion? I spent all day yesterday on a shoot in a corset that was cinched down to a 19 inch waist, and I had on 6 inch stiletto heels. And I chose the clothing- in fact, everything I wore I own myself.

I have a possible catwalk show on Sunday for London Fashion Week,(yes, my diminutive height is being overlooked because the designer is a 5 foot tall Sicilian who hates tall women) and since he has vociferously demanded "una ragazza piccolina" I'm considering not eating till Sunday just so I can drop 3 lbs. Jon has asked that I not do this however, because he says he will have nothing to nibble on and will chip a tooth on the rear of my pelvic bone.

And no, I'm not a masochist. I don't find any of the activities mentioned above pleasurable. But I chose to do them.

So if a girl wants to get herself tied up and poked with a violet wand and spanked with a knifeblade for the camera, for more money than most people make in a week's work, it does not mean she is crazy or being abused against her will. Different strokes for different folks. Every single thing that model experienced, she agreed to in advance. She signed a model release. No owner of a BDSM site would be stupid enough to risk prison by providing videotaped evidence of a crime being committed when they could just as easily find any number of people to do the same act with full consent.

 

[booberrytickle]

Redmage's most recent post implicates an important issue that I personally confronted. Tickling for some people is literally torture or can be painful. A girlfriend who was violently ticklish once made that very clear when I tried to tickle her. Given that reaction, I refrained from tickling her, despite my obvious interest in doing so. While she enjoyed light BDSM play (spanking, etc), it was clear that tickling was not enjoyable "pain" for her, not in the realm of her interests, nor did she intend to consent to it. I guess the point is that any of these issues need to be discussed between consenting adults, especially limits, safe words, etc. Trust is obviously an important part of the equation. Consent to bondage and spanking may not include consent to tickling for some. I won't make judgments about anyone's particular interests (well, I guess I will make judgments about abuse, involvement of children and other issues that are clear cut), but the key to me is communication and clear consent. Some people actually are turned on by nipple clips and an occasional smack with a whip. But the person wielding that clip or whip (or feather, for that matter) needs to understand the limits of the recipient, who needs to build a level of trust before putting themselves in a vulnerable position.