Tickling vs Pain

[susannah355]

I'm very sorry to hear that Susannah. Certainly I wouldn't wish that on anyone for any reason and I'm sure normally you wouldn't either.

We're not talking about the same thing, though.

We're talking about allowing other people to live their lives the way they choose. We're talking about sexual behavior between adults where no one is unhappy and no one is forced to participate or watch.

Not that anyone gives a damn about what I think either ( ), but I have found I'm much happier exploring my personal freedoms and allowing others to do the same.

I'm sorry I snapped at you, lk70. You're right. I would not wish the kind of abuse my father gave us or that Redmage gave the girl in the video clip on anybody. But I have to tell you something and I hope you really listen with an open heart and mind because it's very difficult for me to relive these painful memories. There is little to no difference between these two cases of abuse, that of my father and that of guys like Redmage who do the same thing but under the protective and fashionable umbrella of "consensual adult activity." My mother used to tell my sister and I that the beatings from my father were right and good because we were women and he was a man and this is how men show their love for us. She really believed it and what's worse, I believed it. After he died my mother was admitted to psychiactric inpatient care. I myself still go to an analyst once a month because I still have issues over this. My point is that the abuse in my house was consensual, since none of us opposed it.

Now lk70, take a minute and imagine you lived next door to us at the time, and you would hear these beatings night after night. You talk to my Mom about it and she tells you everything is fine, it's just the way she and he relate. According to what you told Drew, you wouldn't feel it is any of your business to intervene. How could you just let that go on, night after night? Oh shit, I'm crying now. God I wish there was some way I could get it through to you and the others. Physical abuse is never right. CONSENSUAL ABUSE IS STILL ABUSE!!! It's wrong for women to want to be hurt. Any psychiatrist will tell you that self destructive habits, sexual or otherwise, often require intervention. The last thing these women need is for some sadistic bastard to take advantage of their vulnerability. To glorify the dehumanization of a woman by a man, and to brag about it, posting clips of it, it's just beyond dispicable.

I'm not religious. I have no high moral calling here. I'm a registered democrat and considered "liberal" by guys I work with. I support gay rights, Affirmative Action, and I oppose the War in Iraq. I believe men and women should be free to engage in any sexual activity they want, to include farm animals and benwa balls if that's what floats their boat. So please stop painting me as some self-righteous zealot wanting to impose my "morals" on you like Jerry Falwell.

 

[Redmage]

There is little to no difference between these two cases of abuse, that of my father and that of guys like Redmage who do the same thing but under the protective and fashionable umbrella of "consensual adult activity."...I believe men and women should be free to engage in any sexual activity they want, to include farm animals and benwa balls if that's what floats their boat.

Can you tell me how you manage to fit these two ideas together, Susannah? On the one hand you've convinced yourself that what I and my partners do is "abuse," and you clearly feel that no one has the right to abuse another. Yet on the other hand you think we should be free to engage in it, since it is sexual activity that we want.

My point is that the abuse in my house was consensual, since none of us opposed it.

I'm surprised to see you buying into that idea - seriously. The idea that "if she didn't say no she meant yes" is the mantra of date-rapists everywhere. Of all people, someone with your background should know better than this.

In SM, we don't take the absence of opposition to mean consent. We make sure that our partners actually want what we're doing before we start.

God I wish there was some way I could get it through to you and the others. Physical abuse is never right. CONSENSUAL ABUSE IS STILL ABUSE!!! It's wrong for women to want to be hurt. Any psychiatrist will tell you that self destructive habits, sexual or otherwise, often require intervention.

Actually, Susannah, what any psychiatrist will tell you is that behavior is not "self-destructive" unless it impairs the individual's ability to function. A masochist who is happy with his or her choices and suffers no problems in daily life is not considered to need intervention of any sort. "Consensual abuse" is a contradiction in terms.

You don't need to take my word for this. The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom maintains a website that lists "kink-aware professionals." These are medical and mental health professionals who offer their services to those in the kink community - NOT with the idea that kinky people need to be "cured," but rather under the principle that kinky people should have access to professionals who know that kink is not a problem. In my experience, most medical people are aware of this, but the NCSF offers this resource to help people find professionals who publicly affirm this principle.

The last thing these women need is for some sadistic bastard to take advantage of their vulnerability. To glorify the dehumanization of a woman by a man, and to brag about it, posting clips of it, it's just beyond dispicable.

*sigh* You're so passionate, and understandably so. You're convinced that you know what SM is about, but you understand so little of what's going on there. As Artemus Ward wrote, "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so."

Consider that a woman who is working for an adult website consistently for months and years has probably made an informed choice, and likely enjoys what she does on levels beyond the simple money she makes. Isn't is just a bit patronizing to claim that she's "impaired" somehow? Isn't it disrespectful to her rights as a woman to make her own sexual decisions?

I hate to say it, but I seem to be upholding feminist principles more firmly than you are, in this respect.

It's unfortunate that you've decided to ignore my posts, since I think there might be information in this one that could actually be useful to you. Hopefully someone else will bring it to your attention.

 

[Mimi]

The last thing these women need is for some sadistic bastard to take advantage of their vulnerability. To glorify the dehumanization of a woman by a man, and to brag about it, posting clips of it, it's just beyond dispicable.

Okay, and by this logic, any man on this site who has ever tickled a woman, or worse, TIED and tickled her, is a sadistic bastard.

You should not take advantage of womens vulnerability, after all. It apparently does not matter if they want it, or ask for it, or happily and willfully consent to it. It's just plain wrong.

And it's ONLY wrong if men do it to women. I can beat the hell out of any man I want to any degree I want and its okay. Only women are incapable of deciding what they like and what feels good to them.

I don't know about the rest of you in this thread who are attempting to explain the definition of consented and desired activity, but my head hurts from running into this brick wall. I'm stepping away before the pain gets any worse....because unlike what I do in my bedroom, this pain is not desired, and therefore I know enough to not seek it out.

 

[nowayjose]

My point is that the abuse in my house was consensual, since none of us opposed it.

That's not what I'd call "consensual". It's plain abuse, nothing else. That you were intimidated / tricked into believing it is Ok doesn't come into it, imho.

I fully understand your reservations toward this kind of play and noone says that everybody should like it (I don't like any harsh/violent s&m either). But one should not point a finger at those who do. Consensual play is when both parties actually like and enjoy, and want it. Also, sexual play between partners is something _completely_ different from a father abusing his children (or a stranger assaulting a woman). I don't think a comparison can be drawn here. Also most people don't have a "preexisting condition" carried over from childhood and see this kind of sexual play more openly. Not all like it, of course. I guess most don't. But let's not condemn those who do. I find fetishes that involve urination or feces much worse, really gross and, imho, a real borderline thing. But I don't condemn those who do these things either (although I'd prefer not to know about it, if they do).

When it comes to doing the stuff for money.. well, that might be debatable. But still, if one thinks it's good money for some pain, well, why not.
On a sidenote, I'd think there're many people who'd sometimes prefer a spanking over the work they're just doing, for the same money.

 

[drew70]

There seem to be a lot of things dragging this thread off into the bushes. Let's refocus.

Drew's basic argument seems to be: Men who enjoy/are aroused by inflicting pain are bad people, and we shouldn't have stuff by them here for the good of our own community.

Drew, Is that the gist of all of this?

Pretty much hits the nail on the head, Myriads.

The counter argument is: When both parties consent to the activity, no matter how extreme, it's totaly cool. People who responsibly enjoy this stuff are not that different from us and we should understand and accept them.

That does seem to be the opposing argument, more or less.

Ok. So what is it that we are trying to decide here? That S/m material should not appear on the TMF? In the case of the clip that started this thread, I said it was cool for it to be posted. It was of a fetish model well known to the tickling community, and thus had some connective interest here.

I don't know about all that, Myriads. I've been in the Tickling Community since long before the TMF came about. Six months ago I still never heard of Redmage. From my perspective, he seemed to just kind of splash onto the scene recently with this grandiose self image of the quintessential expert in all things related to tickling, bondage, and hurting women. I suspect it was more the BDSM community, rather than the Tickling Community in which he was well known. I think a big part of the problem here comes with trying to marry these communities as one, although I do acknowledge there is some overlap.

It was well labled and anyone clicking on it had a healthy idea of what they were going to get. If a sign says, "you will get hit in the face with a pie if you look in this hole", don't get all upset when you get hit in the face with a pie when you stick your noggin in the hole.

I agree it was well labeled. I can't speak for the others who objected, but for me, my objection was not that I saw something I didn't expect to see, or that I felt I was tricked into seeing something I didn't want to see. Nobody pointed a gun to anybody's head to force them to watch that video or even belong to this community, when you get down to it. But if a posted video contains questionable material, it does so no matter who chooses to heed the label. In other words, if somebody posts something that reflects poorly on the community, it's going to do so whether or not I choose to view it. If I choose not to view it, it will still reflect poorly on us regardless, I just won't know about it and will be operating under the mistaken notion that all is well.

So the debate moves over to the moral debate idea of 'right' treatment of other people.

"Is it Ok to hurt a person for ones own pleasure."

Let me be the first to answer with a resounding "No." It's wrong for a man to put his own desire for pleasure above the safety and well being of the woman in question. If a man's pleasure is dependant on the pain of a woman, I believe this individual has lost the ability to function in society.

That's a valid question to ask.

But there are lots of things that need defining first.

Hurt. What is this thing called hurt?

To hurt somebody is to deliberately or inadvertantly cause pain. Pain is the antithesis of being tickled. The one makes people cry. The other makes people laugh. Pain is our body's way of warning us we are being harmed. A warning I maintain to be wisely heeded.

Are we to see people who like to experience pain as somehow damaged and in need of fixing? Unable to make a mindful choice on thier own about what they can and cannot do and enjoy? Must we 'protect' them from themselves?

It depends on the extent of the pain and how far one is willing to damage oneself (or have somebody else do it) in order to achieve the desired level. Most everybody to include vanilla people enjoy pain in certain moderate doses. We enjoy carbonated beverages that "sting" our throat. We like spicy foods that "burn" the inside of our mouths. Personally I enjoy the way my muscles ache the day after I do any strenuous exercise.

But when a persons want or need for pain escalates into levels that risk damage, that's when I have to draw the line for the "whatever floats your boat" mentality. If such a person actively pursues these dangerous levels of pain, then they have chosen a self destructive lifestyle, and yes, I'm convinced such people do need help.

Can one consent to being hurt?

I think this goes on all the time at BDSM clubs across the nation.

What is considered consent?

Approval, permission, invitation, aquiescence. The green light. The thumb and forefinger. etc.

And so on and so on. These questions and many others are what a lot of people were trying to answer from the S/m side of things. Me included.

Feel free to argue these aspects. I think such discussion is great for our community. Tickling has always been in the edge of the S/m community, and there has always been friction with it because of views on both sides, and our own odd split of playful and hardcore viewholders. Anything that lets us understand each other better is good.

Why is this debate good? It is mirroed in our community itself.

For many many people here when it comes to tickling, they fall into the class of Sadists. They enjoy inflicting a level of distress on a partner by tickling them. That's sadism at it's most basic definition. Now a measurable part of our community is not into this side of our fetish, the playful folks, and are repulsed by the sadistic side, and go "Tickling is something fun and playful! How can you make it so nasty and dark!" The sadistic folks go, "We play responsibly, loosen up, and why do you folks keep dragging kids into a sexual thing?". Thus the friction begins when we put both these cats in the same sack. Both sides need to understand the other better.

Keep the personal attacks out of it. Debate the points. Not the people.

Myriads

I agree it's a worthwhile discussion. Thanks for bringing us back on track, Myriads.

 

[Jackpot$]

Wow. This is one intense thread. Almost as intense as the clip which sparked this whole discussion. That clip made me want to take a shower and scrub down after watching it. I've never understood the attraction towards pain, myself. I'd have to say that at best, it's an unhealthy interest by its very nature. As for guys into giving pain? Seems to describe 80% of television and comic book villains I've come across.

If it's to be taken to a vote, I vote to remove the clip.

 

[isabeau]

ok i didnt mean to post again on this thread but here goes.... to be totally honest the clip made me cringe. i thought it was a caddle prod. and i could hear her squealing even thru the gag. she might have liked it , i have no idea.

all in all it looked painful to me... but let me state that i said it looked emphasis on looked... for all we know she might have been one hell of an actress and pretended that it hurt her......... unless one is there viewing it in person i dont think we can say whether she liked it or not. and i believe too much emphasis is put on the context of pain versus tickling.

for some tickling is worse than pain..... for others pain is worse than tickling. its whatever floats your particular boat. i have personally never experienced pain for pleasure and the same goes for tickling. i had one session with tickling and it was great but i didnt get off on it. so i cannot say with any honesty what would get me off. pain tickling i havent the foggiest idea.

forgive me if i'm not making much sense. i'm rather buzzed at the moment.

isabeau

 

[Redmage]

ok i didnt mean to post again on this thread but here goes.... to be totally honest the clip made me cringe.

Nothing wrong with that - I don't it says anything one way or another about a person that they like or dislike that clip. My only concern was that people know going in what they were about to see. If they accepted that and watched it, then that was their (and your) decision to make.

So the fact that you didn't like it is just something to bear in mind about yourself. It's a good thing to know, I think. Where I've had problems on this thread has been when people made the leap from knowledge about themselves and started making claims to knowledge about other people, based on that clip. That's just silly.

 

[iluvticklinfeet]

wow

sorry everyone, no wise words, but a suggestion instead...redmage and drew, i really think you should both just shake hands and walk away from this thread...and im not going to voice my opinion because contributing to this argument in particular seems trivial and its not going anywhere. So guys, i say agree to disagree and move on, but the clip cannot be removed for the soul reason that it does not break any forum rules....
-LTF

 

[Redmage]

Hiya, LTF.

I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that I'm a barbarian who enjoys degrading women, etc, etc. I appreciate Drew's wish to protect women (though it would be nice if it were generalized to protecting people). But the idea that they need to be protected from me is, well, a bit peculiar from my POV. I'm not sure how much room for agreement that leaves. If there is any, I'd sure like to find it.

Certainly, I'm never going to insist that Drew or anyone else like the same things I like. As I told Isabeau, my problem with all of this begins when Drew or anyone else thinks they can generalize from what they like to what everyone else should like.

Obviously, that opinion has no direct effect on me. It's just not one that I can ever get behind.

sorry everyone, no wise words, but a suggestion instead...redmage and drew, i really think you should both just shake hands and walk away from this thread...and im not going to voice my opinion because contributing to this argument in particular seems trivial and its not going anywhere. So guys, i say agree to disagree and move on, but the clip cannot be removed for the soul reason that it does not break any forum rules....
-LTF

 

[drew70]

sorry everyone, no wise words, but a suggestion instead...redmage and drew, i really think you should both just shake hands and walk away from this thread...and im not going to voice my opinion because contributing to this argument in particular seems trivial and its not going anywhere. So guys, i say agree to disagree and move on, but the clip cannot be removed for the soul reason that it does not break any forum rules....
-LTF

Actually it does violate one of the top no-nos of the forum. It's off topic spam. The powers that be have simply chosen to overlook it, which is certainly their call to make.

Yes, I do object when certain lines are crossed. I daresay you probably do as well. We just have different lines. For example do you think it's okay for a man to break a woman's fingers on a regular basis if she's consensual? Do you think that just because a woman says its okay, a man can grind her kneecap with a belt sander? Where do YOU draw the lines, my numerical namesake?

Where I draw my own personal lines isn't the point. I'm entitled to do whatever I please in my bedroom with another adult who is also doing as he or she pleases. And so is everyone else. It really doesn't matter what we're talking about. Some people would draw the line at tickling, say it's abusive and wrong and that would leave people like us on the other side of your proposed line. You're right- we all have different lines and we're all entitled to them without judgment or censure from others.

Since you sidestepped my question, let me ask a little more directly. Are you telling me that there is nothing that can go on behind closed doors to which you would object, so long as all parties involved are adult, and consensual? Think carefully and use a little imagination before you answer.

You see, this is a perfect example of the inconsistancies in the online tickling community. This attitude that we should never question any action, or exercise any judgement. We're frowned upon if we come out and say that a man taking delight in hurting women is wrong. We're only permitted to say, "Hey it's not my cup of tea, it's not my thing, it's not my bag, baby." If somebody comes out and says, "Hey, this is just plain wrong," then the screamers come out and slap you with their usual indictments of "intolerance," "self-righteousness," "holier-than-thou," etc. Yet as soon as someone posts a thread about tickling kids, some of these same "don't-you-dare-judge" people will suddenly don their black robes and shout "Pervert!! Sick Fuck!! Psycho!!" Court is now in session.

I'm not defending the posting of underage material, I'm merely demonstrating that sometimes it is necessary to make a judgement call, take a stand for what you believe is right or wrong, and damn the screamers. I encourage anybody who opposes Redmage's clip of him inflicting brutal and savage pain on a bound and defenseless woman to speak up in this thread. If you object but don't want to be lynched by the screamers, PM me and I will post your comments with your anonymity intact.

 

[lk70]

Are you telling me that there is nothing that can go on behind closed doors to which you would object, so long as all parties involved are adult, and consensual? Think carefully and use a little imagination before you answer.

If all parties involved are adult, human, and consenting, not only do I not object, but I also really don't care what they are doing. And I don't really see any reason to use my imagination to fabricate all sorts of nefarious scenarios either. I simply don't care what others do.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Perhaps another way of looking at this might help things. Tell me Drew, do you as a lee enjoy the more playful tickling, or prefer the bound, tickled till your howling and short of breath sadistic tickling? Or do you like both?

 

[Redmage]

If all parties involved are adult, human, and consenting, not only do I not object, but I also really don't care what they are doing. And I don't really see any reason to use my imagination to fabricate all sorts of nefarious scenarios either. I simply don't care what others do.

Indeed. What is the POINT of objecting to what other people freely choose to do together? I've never understood why this sort of self-righteousness was thought to have any value.

If something does no harm to me then why should I care? If it "harms" someone else then I'd certainly feel an empathetic connection, and if it's happening against their will then I would reach out to help. But if they choose to participate in something then the idea of "harm" becomes fuzzy to begin with, and at most I can say only that I don't understand their choices. Saying that they're "wrong" simply has no meaning.

Proudly declaring that one has "limits" or "standards" is trivial. Everyone has standards. There is a "line in the sand" for just about everyone, beyond which they feel it is wrong to go. The difference between a responsible individual and a self-righteous busybody lies entirely in where that line is drawn. And it seems to me that the freedom of every adult to make his or her own choices is one of the only non-arbitrary fundamentals for drawing such lines.

 

[drew70]

If all parties involved are adult, human, and consenting, not only do I not object, but I also really don't care what they are doing. And I don't really see any reason to use my imagination to fabricate all sorts of nefarious scenarios either. I simply don't care what others do.

judging from the three stipulations with which you prefaced your declaration of amoral apathy, I'd say your simple not-caring only goes so far, which is been my point all along. I too don't care what people do...up to a point.

Perhaps another way of looking at this might help things. Tell me Drew, do you as a lee enjoy the more playful tickling, or prefer the bound, tickled till your howling and short of breath sadistic tickling? Or do you like both?

Somewhere in between the two, I guess. But hey, I take what I can get.

 

[Redmage]

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before, but it came to me on a thread that Toneus posted.

A short while after I did the shoot in the clip that I posted originally, I did another shoot that also ended up on a website. This link will take you to a collection of free video clips from that shoot. The theme is unmistakeably SM - bondage, spanking, flogging, even a little knifeplay (so those for whom those are triggering themes, be warned). However the tone is VERY lighthearted. Faye (the bottom in these clips) is giggling and cooing all the way through. She's clearly having a very good time, and is not at all distressed by the things we're doing.

I think this might make a good antidote for those who think that BDSM is all about "degrading women".

 

[MrPartickler]

Indeed. What is the POINT of objecting to what other people freely choose to do together? I've never understood why this sort of self-righteousness was thought to have any value.

If something does no harm to me then why should I care? If it "harms" someone else then I'd certainly feel an empathetic connection, and if it's happening against their will then I would reach out to help. But if they choose to participate in something then the idea of "harm" becomes fuzzy to begin with, and at most I can say only that I don't understand their choices. Saying that they're "wrong" simply has no meaning.

Proudly declaring that one has "limits" or "standards" is trivial. Everyone has standards. There is a "line in the sand" for just about everyone, beyond which they feel it is wrong to go. The difference between a responsible individual and a self-righteous busybody lies entirely in where that line is drawn. And it seems to me that the freedom of every adult to make his or her own choices is one of the only non-arbitrary fundamentals for drawing such lines.

True, very true. Unfortunately, the fun begins when some become convinced others are somehow less-capable of making the very same choices they make everyday. (You know...because only a "crazy" person would make choices they themselves cannot understand. ) Then they feel it is their personal duty to swoop in and "rescue" these helpless, self-deluded victims of....well, whatever. Which of course lands us back here...and around and around we go.

 

[Johnny Ticklish]

Drew, as usual, you seem to speak with my own heart. I watched that fucking clip and I agree with everything you've said. Any depiction of violence as erotica is just plain sick. Not only that, it's unconcionable for a man to take advantage of women that have clearly damaged emotional landscapes that result in the need for pain, just to satisfy his own bloodlust. It's absolutely sickening. I can't imagine a more dysfunctional relationship. What really amazes me are these people who claim not to care what goes on behind closed doors. Unbelievable. So I guess it's okay to screw an autistic with no experience in sex. Hey, as long as she consents to it and is over 18 she fits the bill, right? It's also clear to me that there is little difference between the relationship of Susannah's parents and the relationship between these sadists and their "slaves." You've coined a phrase that will go down in history. "Consensual Abuse." Gotta love it!

Don't let the "screamers" get you down, buddy. I know you're ignoring Redmage, but I thought you might be amused to know he is now posting links to some more of his work, to demonstrate how "innocent" BDSM play is. Clearly he's concerned about all the bad press you're giving him. For someone who claims to be ignoring you, he's all over this thread. *chuckle*

 

[LindyHopper]

Drew, as usual, you seem to speak with my own heart. I watched that fucking clip and I agree with everything you've said. Any depiction of violence as erotica is just plain sick. Not only that, it's unconcionable for a man to take advantage of women that have clearly damaged emotional landscapes that result in the need for pain, just to satisfy his own bloodlust. It's absolutely sickening. I can't imagine a more dysfunctional relationship. What really amazes me are these people who claim not to care what goes on behind closed doors. Unbelievable. So I guess it's okay to screw an autistic with no experience in sex. Hey, as long as she consents to it and is over 18 she fits the bill, right? It's also clear to me that there is little difference between the relationship of Susannah's parents and the relationship between these sadists and their "slaves." You've coined a phrase that will go down in history. "Consensual Abuse." Gotta love it!

Don't let the "screamers" get you down, buddy...

You know what, I wasn't screaming until you got here, Johnny. But, this one pissed me off enough to respond. If I want to be tied up and tickled until I scream and cry, that means I have a "damaged emotional landscape"? Or does this only apply if I want "pain" (as defined by you) until I scream and cry? Could you be any more judgmental? Or patronizing?!

And about the autistic - are you f*cking kidding me!?! If I make a decision regarding my sexual life that you disapprove of, you say I have the judgment of an autistic?!? Or as Drew would analogize, a child, since he likens tolerating BDSM to tolerating pedophilia.

And I'm amazed that you fail to see the world of difference between an abusive relationship, and a consentual master-slave one. Abuse leaves lasting psychological scars. A consentual relationship in BDSM is happy and fulfilling. You calling them the same thing is an slap in the face to abused wives and children everywhere.

[insulting remark deleted here upon further reflection, due to considerations of good taste]

 

[susannah355]

Okay, and by this logic, any man on this site who has ever tickled a woman, or worse, TIED and tickled her, is a sadistic bastard.

Um...sure, if you think that tickling and pain are the same thing. Talk to an abuse survivor and see if she agrees with you.

You should not take advantage of womens vulnerability, after all. It apparently does not matter if they want it, or ask for it, or happily and willfully consent to it. It's just plain wrong.

The fact that you can sit and snear at such truth makes me glad for you that you've never experienced the kind of abuse I have. Even though it would open your eyes, I can't wish that on anybody.

And it's ONLY wrong if men do it to women. I can beat the hell out of any man I want to any degree I want and its okay. Only women are incapable of deciding what they like and what feels good to them.

I never said that, Mimi. Please don't put words in my mouth. My therapy group has abused men as well. But the women far outnumber the men. Sorry if that fact offends you.

I don't know about the rest of you in this thread who are attempting to explain the definition of consented and desired activity, but my head hurts from running into this brick wall. I'm stepping away before the pain gets any worse....because unlike what I do in my bedroom, this pain is not desired, and therefore I know enough to not seek it out.

It's okay, Mimi. No offense taken. To you and the others, pain is just another sensation, like tickling or being wrapped in velvet. Nothing to get excited or concerned about. Live and let suffer, right?

 

[Mimi]

And here you go about making faulty assumptions again, susannah. Guess what, honey? I'm a victim of child abuse too! *shock* I was beaten, sexually assaulted, AND shot. I just don't feel the need to shout it from the rooftops at every person who looks at me cross-eyed as some sort of defense shield against bad words and ideas. I'm a big girl who's learned from her upbringing, and learned the difference between unwanted attention, and desired attention. Most abuse victims learn to make that distinction. I'm sorry that you never did.

Just as you don't know about my past or my pleasures, you don't know what these other women enjoy and don't enjoy. Don't project your own perceptions on the entire free world. If I want a little pain mixed in with my play when I'm in a session, that is my damn business and no one elses. For you and drew and others to sit on your high horses and tell me that I'm a victim or I don't know any better, or that I'm mentally screwed up because I like it is asinine.

Mimi

 

[Redmage]

Drew, as usual, you seem to speak with my own heart. I watched that fucking clip and I agree with everything you've said. Any depiction of violence as erotica is just plain sick.

Well, according to the people whose business it is to define mental illness, it actually isn't. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course, Johnny, but you probably ought to be aware, at least in your own mind, that that's all it is. The professionals disagree.

Not only that, it's unconcionable for a man to take advantage of women that have clearly damaged emotional landscapes that result in the need for pain, just to satisfy his own bloodlust.

"Clearly damaged," according to whom, Johnny? There's not a shred of evidence that non-pathological masochism is the result of "emotional damage," and I assure you people have looked. So, once again, this is you insisting that the universe is as you wish it were, rather than seeing it as it is.

What really amazes me are these people who claim not to care what goes on behind closed doors. Unbelievable. So I guess it's okay to screw an autistic with no experience in sex. Hey, as long as she consents to it and is over 18 she fits the bill, right?

If she's autistic then there's good reason to believe that she can't give consent, Johnny. That's why such things are considered reprehensible - and why BDSM with clear-minded, unimpaired adults is not.

This issue of consent, and the right to choose, seems to be the hardest concept for folks on your side of this debate to accept. It's as though, since you can't imagine doing such things yourselves, you can't get your minds around the fact that levelheaded people of good conscience can do so.

You've coined a phrase that will go down in history. "Consensual Abuse."

Yes, I forsee it taking a place of honor alongside "military intelligence" and "jumbo shrimp."

I know you're ignoring Redmage, but I thought you might be amused to know he is now posting links to some more of his work, to demonstrate how "innocent" BDSM play is. Clearly he's concerned about all the bad press you're giving him. For someone who claims to be ignoring you, he's all over this thread. *chuckle*

Yes, I'm clearing up the mistakes put out by people like you, Johnny. There have been so many on that side, it keeps me busy.

And yes, I was in fact demonstrating (pretty clearly, at that) that BDSM is not what you and Drew think it is. I don't expect to open minds that have been sealed off from air and light, but I think it might show another side of things to those who are willing to look at matters objectively.

 

[Mimi]

Um...sure, if you think that tickling and pain are the same thing. Talk to an abuse survivor and see if she agrees with you.

Two more points quick....

I have a friend to whom tickling is such barbaric torture she'd rather have her teeth yanked out with a wrench than be tickled. There is no worse sensation in the world to her.

We also have many forum members who were abused as children, NOT through pain or beatings or spankings, but through TICKLING. Tickling can be every bit as much of a power control, sensation control, and sadistic act of torture as pain. So all the points you have been making against S&M can also be made against tickling. Yet a few of you feel tickling is okay honkey dorey and fun for all. There's nothing wrong with having a tickling fetish. Only a pain fetish.

Pardon me while I say....

 

[Bonds1957]

I chose to ignore this thread at first, refusing to respond to what originated as an excuse for Drew to flame Redmage and try, once again, to be a backseat moderator. I now see it has grown quite a bit, and I got a few laughs from the unshakable ignorance some posters have displayed.

I briefly considered writing long winded replies to what has been posted, but I realize it would be an exercise in futility. Besides, there is not much I can add that wasn't already said by Redmage, Mimi, Myriads, lk70, and others. I commend you guys on using logic and patience in your posts. Especially you, Redmage, for not stooping low to flames and personal attacks, like those brought against you. It must be very tiring to argue with a wall.

Unfortunately, this argument is impossible to win in the normal sense. The tactics Drew and his supporters are using are very similar to those of modern day Nazis, the KKK, other racists, and bible crazed creationists. (Before anyone whines, I'm not comparing you to racists, just the debate tactics you're employing.) Just like with racists, it's impossible to use logic or reasoning to "win". All you can do is let them know they are opposed, ignore them, and hope they go away.

I find it amazing that anyone with a sexual interest in tickling (which many people would find very odd) could be so close minded and stubborn.

 

[iluvticklinfeet]

wow

wow...i can see the gunfire coming from both sides...
red and drew...my agreement idea was to agree to disagree, stand up and face the fact that neither of you is going to admit defeat so settle on a truce...and now im outta here before mimi or susanah's spitfire burns my eyebrows off (no offense to either of you, it justs you two have started your own battle in the red vs. drew war!)

-LTF