Sakura/Miroku pic + Vladdie please grow up (neither vital enough for its own thread)

[Celtic_Emperor]

Maybe she feels they aren't up to it.
Don't turn meek on me now: you know you can out-type many users over here and TMF.

She's taking the sides of keyboard-impaired folks who would like to reply, but won't or can't for some reason.

I think Normie put it rather clearly: you overwhelm people with words.
Few care to reply.
It doesn't mean they wouldn't.
And it surely doesn't mean they wouldn't like to get even with you.

Apparently, something has just snapped in Nessie's mind.
And she's out to get you.
With about 3 years of pent up anger. Give or take a month.

...

Me? I would never bother with telling you how to improve your art.
I don't like you enough to.

I think acting on other people's behalf without their consent or imput is wrong, as she may completely be doing what she feels is a justice when the person I critiqued didn't want to have it put quite that way, or, alternatively, they wouldn't have said that to me.

Thats the danger with representing people who do not speak for themselves. You have no real right to because you could be completely wrong and do them harm.

I admire that she would want to stand up for people (I do it myself often, albeit not here necessarily) but I never claim to represent a group, a faction, or people. Like I said earlier, when you are talking to me, you are talking to JUST ME.

Ness says "we" alot more than she says "I". She takes it upon herself to represent people who do not speak out or tell me how they feel.

If they really have a problem with how I've talked to them, they should know it wasn't intentional, and I'm sorry. But I can only tell them that if they talk to me or attempt to. If they did, I'd be more than willing to accomidate them. But THEY have to make the effort and move FIRST. Not me. It's not my responsibility to ask them how they feel.

Ness should have absolutely no involvement when and if this happens. She's nobodies avenger, nobodies 3rd wheel and nobodies defense attorney. And by coming to me to complain doesn't make that necessary dialogue between me and the artist more possible. If anything, it drives a further wedge into the situation and creates misplaced animosity.

You can't talk through Ness or anyone else. You have to use your own voice, otherwise you've left your online fate and good name in the hands of someone else.

 

[Kalamos]

Maybe they PMed her.
You can't keep a track of her private messages, can you?

And I guess you *don't* receive those nifty auto-mails sent by the server to Moderators, when a user issues a Report Post warning.

...

Finally, since you say it's you against them, I don't see so much of a wedge.
We'd lose you.
Period.

I mean, I can't see people crying over MY departure.
Can't imagine them over yours.

...

Ok, this one was cruel.
But I'd say you should take the brunt of the barrage without arguing about its fairness.

I walked away from worse situations.
I guess you could swallow on your own pride.

You can get even later.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Maybe they PMed her.
You can't keep a track of her private messages, can you?

And I guess you *don't* receive those nifty auto-mails sent by the server to Moderators, when a user issues a Report Post warning.

...

Finally, since you say it's you against them, I don't see so much of a wedge.
We'd lose you.
Period.

I mean, I can't see people crying over MY departure.
Can't imagine them over yours.

...

Ok, this one was cruel.
But I'd say you should take the brunt of the barrage without arguing about its fairness.

I walked away from worse situations.
I guess you could swallow on your own pride.

You can get even later.

If they PMed her, it doesn't matter. Its not them talking to me. Its her. And just like theres no way for me to know what they talked about or how that person really feels, theres no way for Ness to know how I would react.

Putting Ness in the middle dooms resolutions. Ness is a completely different person. She could never represent someone better than that person could represent themself. Its not her job to do this. Its wrong. Getting in my face doesn't bring that artist and me closer together. All it does is put Ness in my face for arguing. It doesn't solve anything. And if anyone thinks it does, they are sick.

As for warnings, that, again, is doomed to fail nor does it resolve the issue. Because certainly Ness or Val or HDS has never told me they recieved a warning from whomever. Nor have they told me what it was about and why the person did it. People don't want other people to know what they were warning them for. They never talk to me about it. What good does it do that artist to sent an anonymous warning to a moderator? That may not solve anything since that artist is not dealing with me.

It doesn't tell me how they feel, and like I said, it wouldn't be in there own words. Even if they typed something and then Ness or whomever copied and pasted it, isn't that rather sad? To have to use a moderator as a tool to send a messege? Its better to just do it yourself and forget the warning. Thats just red tape that ultimately serves no purpose unless I'm breaking the rules which I most likely would not be doing in critiquing them anyway.

As for leaving and losing, this isn't about winning or losing. Its not a game. Its about viable communication. And that can't take place with a mod as a 3rd wheel or voice piece. Why should I respect that? Its almost insulting that someone doesn't have the courage to speak to me either privately or directly. They shouldn't have to get a mod involved.

Why should I take the brunt of ANYTHING is what I'm saying. Sure, I'm strong and can take it, but that doesn't mean I should have to. Critiquing is not a crime. An artist wants to say something, say it. Don't try and get a mod to go avenger on me for you. All that does is make me angry toward YOU (as before I had no reason to dislike you but may now) and it also creates a problem for me and the moderator.

No user has a right to put another in such an awkward situation or to put a mod in that situation either, even if the mod is willing.


Finally, I have no desire to get even. If I did I'd be breaking rules and would go about this in a more volital way.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I just want this type of thing to be avoided in the future. It works out better for everyone that way.

I'm out of here. Enjoy your thread.

 

[Kalamos]

Hey, I told you not to get long-winded on me.
I'm not the one trashing your pics.

...

There, I'll be replying to this:

Ness could never represent someone better than that person could represent themself. Its not her job to do this.

You're wrong there.
Moderators act as cops and lawyers, in a forum.

You hurt/slight/wrong somebody, they won't bring it to you, but they report you to moderators.
That's the way we do things here.
No private justice around TTC.

You say she's being unfair and vengeful, and you don't deserve her words?
Well... sucks being you.

I told you not to anger mods.
You know they aren't the sanest lot.

You wouldn't listen...

So... Goodbye.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Then it should be traditional punishment. Like bans and such. You don't think up creative ways of doing it, you do what the rules tell you to. It's not the mod's job to create ways to get back at the person(by critiquing me for critiquing them). Its their job to reprimand them if the rules have truely been broken. They haven't, so nothing should be done to me.

Even if an artist could justify a mod's ability to reprimand me, it doesn't mean the reprimand should even take place. That is not blind justice. Its favoritism with a pinch of bias.

Which is why this happening. You don't get yourself personally involved in the affair and vent the frustations of the artist through yourself. Thats not professional, thats childish and warped.

Sorry. I was going to walk away from this, but I can't when you want to make this so black and white or even justify handling things this way.

Its petty to try and hurt me because you can't through the rules (by punishing me as normal as if I had broken a rule). Its an attempt to punish when no rules support a punishment. Its about wanting someone to pay at any cost. Period.

What about my rights? Huh?

Oh, thats right. It only matters how that artist feels. I forgot about that.

 

[Kalamos]

Then it should be traditional punishment.

* Scratches head *

...

Would you like me to fire-brand you?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

No. If an artist doesn't like what I've said, they should just accept it.

If I then, in their mind, "attack" this person again, then there may be grounds to punishment in a traditional sense (loss of priveledges, temp. ban, etc.) That would be perfectly acceptable, and I would have deserved it, but only under the condition that I actually did something wrong and broke an actual rule.

I've never broken the rules when critiquing folks here. The fact is, the rules cannot be applied to these situations therefore. No bans, no punishment, etc.

An artist who really feels vindictive who attempts to use a moderator to do something else since nothing can be done within the rules, is what is wrong. Or, when a moderator takes it upon themself to work outside the rules or even break them to bring "justice" to a situation. Thats whats wrong about it.

To create "add-on" rules for certain people because you know they are otherwise in good standing with the site is wrong. Thats exactly what would happen to me in this type of situation.

An artist is hurt. They whine to a moderator. The moderator tells them theres nothing they can do. He has the right to give his opinion. The artist then whines further saying its not fair and that they want him (me) to pay or be punished somehow.

It is unexcusable for a moderator to stoop to this kind of level over something like critiques whether an artist complained or not. To find ways that artist/whomever can get back at the critiquer because there is no other way is wrong.

Its not protecting me or my rights or privledges. Its rendering an unnecessary verdict to be carried out in a unorthodox way that only makes the situation more volital and compromised.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Mods are called to be enforcers. Not pranksters, tricksters or instigators. They are not there to get even or help others get even. They are there to uphold the rules and nothing more in regards to issues.

If a user has done nothing wrong, there is nothing to enforce, even if someone's feelings are hurt.

This kind of vigilante justice taken by a moderator of all people, is screwy, unsettling, and wrong.

 

[Kalamos]

No. If an artist doesn't like what I've said, they should just accept it.

Why, because you said so?

I'd like to remind you the spirit of the law against the letter of the law.

Did anybody temp-ban or punish Hiei somehow, over TMF, for going "er hum" on Daphine?

She appealed to the letter of the rule. She was right by the strict letter.
But as it seems nobody really gave a d*mn, considering we had that thread grow past 2000 hits without Dave ever posting or moderating it.
So people felt the spirit was different.

You are missing my point again here.

You are replying to me as if I were to choose your punishment or something.
I'm not behind Nessie's critiques.
I don't really care if she criticises your pics, if she later opts for a temp ban, or something more refined and cruel.
I don't know. I don't care. I don't waste my time giving *free* critiques on people who might *exploit* my advices to become *better* than I am.

By giving unrelented advices on pics, you're weeding the weak or lazy out, and effectively creating a new generation of kickass artists who rock everybody's world from post #1.
And people will forget about US.

Would you mind stopping?
It really grates on my nerves when a new artist joins in and some random mofo goes all "ah, about time a pro joined this place" on him/her/it.
What am I? Italian finery!?

And knowing you've been giving them the tools to get better at our expenses makes me more and more willing to try on you some of those "traditional punishments" you seem so fond of.

Advice is like gold. Stop squandering it.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Why, because you said so?

Not because I said so. But because if theres no prior offense from me to them, theres no reason to take such action so as to get a moderator involved. They should attempt to talk it out, not just "call in the big boys" in the hope they can "beat me up". Thats a misuse of moderator time.

I'd like to remind you the spirit of the law against the letter of the law.

Did anybody temp-ban or punish Hiei somehow, over TMF, for going "er hum" on Daphine?

She appealed to the letter of the rule. She was right by the strict letter.
But as it seems nobody really gave a d*mn, considering we had that thread grow past 2000 hits without Dave ever posting or moderating it.
So people felt the spirit was different.

Had the situation actually been dire and it would have resulted in vigilante justice (either you or me or someone else defending her) that would have been fine had it not involved a moderator. There would have been a chance to talk it out no matter how petty it was.

If it would have failed and that given chance simply did not bear any fruit, THEN you get the moderators involved because THEN you'll have an actual case. Not just an argument.

The fact that no mods helped her doesn't mean the rule was not there. Perhaps they wanted to give them the chance of solving it themselves. It didn't work out that way. But by the time it was over, the situation resolved itself.

You are replying to me as if I were to choose your punishment or something.
I'm not behind Nessie's critiques.

I'm sorry if it seems that way. But it's not. It only seems that way because you and I are the only ones here. What I'm saying is just as much directed at those artists (if they even exist) as it is the mods or anyone else.[/QUOTE]

By giving unrelented advices on pics, you're weeding the weak or lazy out, and effectively creating a new generation of kickass artists who rock everybody's world from post #1.
And people will forget about US.

You've proven my point. Its all in how that artist INTERPRETES that "advice". They may see it as something completely different. You or I should not be punished for it in any way.

 

[Kalamos]

Well, this is leading nowhere: you said you never did wrong to them.
Nessie's actions seem to say otherwise.

Either of you is wrong. Possibly both, for different reasons.
Shouldn't you bring the matter to somebody who can do something?
It's not like I can grab a plane, fly over to Ness, and clobber her with the aforementioned yard-long iron-shod stick of whupass so she'd stop "pestering" you.

I could fly over to her and congratulate, cause she's giving you a hard time, and I am sadistic bitch.
But that's not my point...

😉

...

You've proven my point. Its all in how that artist INTERPRETES that "advice". They may see it as something completely different. You or I should not be punished for it in any way.

Yeah, but you're training and arming our foes!

I don't really know what possesses you into telling people how to get better.
Can't you just dream of enslaving them or something?

They are not even asking for you help!
It's like mauling them so they can be grateful you've given them nice new bruises to show.

...

Really, you should stop and see their reasons.
I'm not saying that they *are* right.
You can bet they *think* they are, and they are behaving accordingly.

You don't plan on your strategy, but on your foe's.

...

Really, do you ever win at Warhammer?

...

Besides, I don't tell people how to get better.
I'm telling you how to avoid getting worse.
And it's really more than I think you guys deserve.

...

If you don't mind, I've given you all the tools to get out of this fix.
You keep saying you're smart, articulate and mature.

I'm sure you'll figure out.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

You're a sounding board and you've managed to support me whether you realize it or not. I already have it figured out. Thank you for your time. Now I'm really out of here. 🙂

P.S: Warhammer is just as much a game of chance and opportunity than it is tactics. All the tactics in the world won't matter if the dice aren't working with you.

I just so happen to have never lost an official battle with anyone. Maybe my number will be up someday. Maybe it won't. All you can do is prepare and make the most of it and let fate take care of the rest.

Much like with situations like this. The days are the dice and with each one something new can happen either for or against you.

 

[Kalamos]

Had I wanted to leave things as they were, I would have refrained from posting.
Simple as that.

How you're going to use what you've gleaned so far, I won't say.

 

[nessonite1]

Amazing how two pages can go by AFTER someone says they are done talking. Deja what?

A person should be able to critique in peace. Thats all I would want.

Let's keep that in mind, shall we?
It's kind of interesting to see two people talk back and forth about my possible motives. Makes me wish my actual intentions reached the conspiracy-theory levels that have been suggested. lol
It boils down to some very very basic things.

Vladdie, you constantly critique people. Mercilessly. Whether intentional or not your words are often downright cruel and seem to be formulated to make the artist feel like a talentless hack.

With that in mind it's hardly fair for you to go apeshit crazy and blow up at someone when they dare to suggest that you might have some room for improvement.

Not many people have bothered throwing a critique your way cause it's just not worth dealing with the inevitable tantrum that will follow. On the few occasions that I say something (it's not nearly as often as you seem to think it is) you go nuts.

I don't critique people often, usually not unless they request it. Mainly because there are two types of artist here. The more serious among us who have a real desire to persue art as more than just a passtime, and the less serious artists who just draw for kicks. The former are the ones who benefit most from a word or two from a third party who has a fresh veiwpoint as it always helps to look at your own work through someone else's eyes. The latter, the less serious artists, aren't looking to necessarily perfect their craft and may not have any need to hear what anyone has to say about what they've done from an artists perspective. They've made their contribution to the forum and I think that's awesome.
I actually don't do much critiquing at all. I have with you on a couple of occasions because sometimes I see such gross anatomical flaws that I just don't see with other "serious" artists and I feel compelled to say something.
Someone who takes themselves as god-awfully seriously as you do should accept critiquing as well as you expect other people to accept when you pick their pictures apart and tell them, in brutal detail, about each and every flaw you think you find.
What I saw here in this particular thread was a girl with giant onlong protrusions sticking out of her abdomen. So I said something about it. Maybe in a different way than I would have with someone else but that's only because I know there is no crack in your ego that couldn't withstand the same brutal honesty that you routinely dish out to everyone else.
If you don't want people critiquing what you do then perhaps you need to say that in your posts. If you have any interest at all in improving your art then you ought to welcome critique rather than defending your pics to the death as if they were delivered by the hand of God on a beam of light surrounded by a choir of holy angels.

I'd write more but I've already gone Vladdie enough with the length of this. You won't listen anyway. I dont know if there's a single person on this forum who has anything to say that you think you need to bother listening to. Regarding your art or anything else.

 

[Kalamos]

Amazing how two pages can go by AFTER someone says they are done talking.

He couldn't resist my charms. 😉

It's kind of interesting to see two people talk back and forth about my possible motives. Makes me wish my actual intentions reached the conspiracy-theory levels that have been suggested.

Ah! We all know you have hidden motives!
The Illuminati are behind all of this!

😉

 

[morgandee]

i see too much jibba jabbering and not enough drawing rydia!!!!!

 

[LonelyKimiko]

i see too much jibba jabbering and not enough drawing rydia!!!!!

In the words of Mr. T

Quit yo jibba jabba yo crazy foo...

^^

 

[Hungarian21]

Remember about 2 days and what, 9 pages ago?😛 I appologized? I was kind of setting an example...or a point, if you must say so...😉*hint, hint*!😀

 

[Kjiron]

Maybe it's wrong of me to make this post. Maybe I'm being immature. Maybe part of me just wants to play the hero like everyone else. I don't know. What I do know is that my heart aches with the need to say these words and so I will chose not to deny myself. With that choice, I take full responsibility for my actions and am willing to shoulder any burden that may befall me for it.

*sighs and looks up to the sky*

All the people I look up to so much are fighting among themselves like bitter rivals.

It saddens me.

Stop and take a look at the title on your browser bar. It says "TickleTheater Community". We can't let that fall apart, not now and not ever. I'm not saying that any one, two, or three persons in this thread hold our community together themselves. When the commanders of an army, however, fight amongst themselves it makes the rest of the soldiers less able to fight for what they believe in. I know what I believe in, and I'm going to fight for it now. I understand the feeling of wanting to defend your opinion, actions, or position. There's nothing but honor in it, and I respect that. All I ask of you veterans is that when you need to do this please do it in private. Ness, Vlad, Kalamos, there's no need to put on this show for everyone to see. Even if you feel you were attacked in public you do not have to strike back in public as well. We all respect all of you already and there's no need to constantly try to earn that which you have had for so long.

Your battles are nothing short of vibrant, elegant, graceful, and beautiful. A battle, however, is still a battle and as such there must be violence of one form or another. Reading your duels has always been an honor to me, but it hurts to see so much angst being bitten back under such a bright spotlight and in a community about the act of tickling.

Ness, I've always loved your art and your eternal child-like nature. You are able to see love and compassion for what they truly are and you bring it out in every picture you draw.

Vlad, the creations you have wrought of both word and ink inspire me every time I lay my eyes on them. There are many things in you that I hope to find in the man I will someday fall in love with.

Kalamos, if there is anyone who truly understands the power of the mind it is you. I've always looked up to you as I do my favorite teachers.

It only makes things worse to clash swords on the forum like this and we all know it. Please don't extinguish the burning passions in your hearts. What I ask of you is that you stop allowing those flames to burn the rest of the community. Thank you.

 

[LonelyKimiko]

*eyes go starry*

Now that is a well written, and brilliant post 🙂 . *bows before Kjiron*

 

[Low_Roads]

Elequently stated, kjiron: my own feelings, in far better language than I could muster. I find this rangling amongst people I've come to care for so much terribly unsettling and upsetting, perhaps far more so than they themselves do. It's soul destroying, but I think things are beginning to settle a bit. I'm confident civility will return soon. One must weather such storms and hope no lasting damage is done after they clear.

 

[BigNorm]

And do you need to provide an example? I'm sure the villiage idiot and everyone else is aware that I post long posts.

Complaining about it does nothing.

^
|
|
|
|

the shortest post ever.

don't care if it does anything, just don't do a 1,000 word post if your talking to me, it won't get read, and it'll be a waste of time.

And i'm glad you think of me as a village idiot! 😀 ...

what an ass...

 

[Kalamos]

What ever happened to the critiques thread anyway?
Bah. I spent my night nursing Vlad's ego, and I'm not going to waste *this*.

...

 

[BigNorm]

People usually avoid walking on dog droppings without checking if they're fresh each and every time...

They don't really need an informed opinion to know.

😉

lol, good point.

great pic, kalamos, a good pic to sum up the thread, and my evening.

and a good point, kjiron, but i believe ness is adressing a good point, and even scratching an itch, which has been left festering far too long.