*SPOILERS* Star Wars- Episode III: Revenge Of The Sith Discussion *SPOILERS*

[F.L. Atlanta 10]

Question: Who the HELL is Tryannus and what Episode was he in?

 

[Goodieluver]

Tyrannus is the name given to dooku, his name is count dooku but when he became a sith he became darth Tyrannus and he appears first in episode II

Hey vlad, i just bought the video game for III, its pretty cool if you like fightin with light sabres and such, also the alternate ending is something u'd like and hate

 

[Goodieluver]

It seems even worse now then it did back when Return of the Jedi came out, that Luke kicked Vaders ass. In Episode 3,Vader wipes out an entire temple full of Jedis and pupils,slays a nearly undefeatable Sith Lord,and chops off the hand of a Jedi master of the form 6 style. Luke on the other hand,had almost no real lightsaber training and was still in the Padawan stage. Vader was a Sith Lord and also hunted down most of the remaining Jedi and slew them after the events of Episode 3 in addition. Yet it looked like he did'nt stand a chance against Luke. Vader may have been older,but judging from Yoda,Dooku,and Sideous ,they get better with age.

Say Vladislaus,your June 5th message never went through.

You can argue why Winduo was able to nearly kill palpatine and yet Yoda had so much trouble fighting him off. Its all different battle to battle.

The jedi vader slain in the temple were padawans, unless you play the game\read the books then u see he does slay a master and the highest apprentice in the temple.

Luke recieved training from Obi wan and they recieved training from Yoda, which is what advanced him to a Jedi knight, so Luke wasnt clueless in his skills.

Vader\anakin was not the best lightsabre fighter in the galaxy, in episode II obi wan even said that if he spent more of him time training, one day he could even rival yoda. As for better with age that is arguable, yoda used the force to enhance his fighting but he was still pretty frail, vader was only a torso and head of his origional body,

And as vlad said, luke nor a typical jedi went offensive, theyre tactics were deflect\evade. Luke finally lashed out and used his anger and hatred to attack, which did surprise vader.

 

[F.L. Atlanta 10]

Tyrannus is the name given to dooku, his name is count dooku but when he became a sith he became darth Tyrannus and he appears first in episode II

Gotcha, I only saw Episode 2 once when it came out in theaters

 

[Triple T1]

You can argue why Winduo was able to nearly kill palpatine and yet Yoda had so much trouble fighting him off. Its all different battle to battle.

The jedi vader slain in the temple were padawans, unless you play the game\read the books then u see he does slay a master and the highest apprentice in the temple.

Luke recieved training from Obi wan and they recieved training from Yoda, which is what advanced him to a Jedi knight, so Luke wasnt clueless in his skills.

Vader\anakin was not the best lightsabre fighter in the galaxy, in episode II obi wan even said that if he spent more of him time training, one day he could even rival yoda. As for better with age that is arguable, yoda used the force to enhance his fighting but he was still pretty frail, vader was only a torso and head of his origional body,

And as vlad said, luke nor a typical jedi went offensive, theyre tactics were deflect\evade. Luke finally lashed out and used his anger and hatred to attack, which did surprise vader.

In Episode 3 they show the Jedi master you mentioned in the holographic display Obiwan plays back.In real life it was the stuntman who trained the actors swordplay, making a cameo.

Luke only had very limited training from Obiwan,since Obiwan was slain soon after they met.They never showed Yoda giving Luke any lightsaber training.Luke never seemed to progress too well when he was with Yoda.Yoda was against his training in the first place.Luke may have had the chance to reach the point of lightsaber training with Yoda ,but he ran off to help his freinds.

Anakin was alot more experienced after Episode 2.Dooku fought Yoda to a standstill,Anakin was able to slay Dooku,so by that time in history,Anakin may have been a match for Yoda if he did'nt get too cocky like he did with Obiwan.


In the Clone Wars micro-series,Greivous slayed several Jedi and he was only a brain,guts and spinal cord.


The force may have a way of giving itself a little balance on its own.With Yoda dead,the light-side of the force may have transfered more of its energy to Luke who now represented the only good being trained in the force.
The same would work for Sideous after Dooku was slain. The Lightside was spread over thousands of Jedi at that point.Sideous had all the Darkside nearly to himself when the Jedi confronted him.

 

[Goodieluver]

In Episode 3 they show the Jedi master you mentioned in the holographic display Obiwan plays back.In real life it was the stuntman who trained the actors swordplay, making a cameo.

Luke only had very limited training from Obiwan,since Obiwan was slain soon after they met.They never showed Yoda giving Luke any lightsaber training.Luke never seemed to progress too well when he was with Yoda.Yoda was against his training in the first place.Luke may have had the chance to reach the point of lightsaber training with Yoda ,but he ran off to help his freinds.

Anakin was alot more experienced after Episode 2.Dooku fought Yoda to a standstill,Anakin was able to slay Dooku,so by that time in history,Anakin may have been a match for Yoda if he did'nt get too cocky like he did with Obiwan.


In the Clone Wars micro-series,Greivous slayed several Jedi and he was only a brain,guts and spinal cord.


The force may have a way of giving itself a little balance on its own.With Yoda dead,the light-side of the force may have transfered more of its energy to Luke who now represented the only good being trained in the force.
The same would work for Sideous after Dooku was slain. The Lightside was spread over thousands of Jedi at that point.Sideous had all the Darkside nearly to himself when the Jedi confronted him.

Greivous is also a machine pretty much and semantics wise, machines are more advanced than humans. A bunch of clone troopers killed jedi knights, even with the odds against them.

We didnt see every second of training for luke when he was with yoda, also a decent amount of time passed between "a new hope" and "empire strikes back" so its reasonable to believe he continued to train on his own. The force is also a major factor because it gives you a sense of precognition and ability to sense attacks before they come.

I dont agree with the final statement, the force isnt like the power we see in the movie "one" with jet li where when one died, the lifeforce got redirected to the rest of his persona's, the force is pretty much nature and life. Yoda and others dont consume the force or posess the force, they use it. If what you said is true, then the darkside would always be the strongest because there was only two. The only difference between the darkside and light side is the use of the force.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I want to clear something up again because its being brought up again. Palpatine was more than capable of killing Windu, only he didn't because it was all part of his plan, a trap the Jedi and Anakin walked into (just like Anakin and Obi-Wan did with his apparent "abduction". He's much stronger than Windu. Its not coincidence or fate that he lost the duel only to be saved by Anakin. It was all perfectly orchestrated and timed, and he used the Force to forsee the results.

He knew enough to know Anakin was on his way and in a few seconds would be entering the room, so he yielded to Windu the way Obi-Wan yields to Vader later in Episode IV. Its to his credit that Mace Windu is arguably the best duelist in the Old Republic second only to Yoda, but he's no match for the Dark Side in Palpatine and Palpatine's mastery of Form V in it's rawest form.

Sidious killed the other three Jedi Masters first. This is a favored tactic among powerful Sith- the elimination of all but the most powerful opponent.

Palpatine was merely holding back because he had to. Killing Windu wasn't an option just yet. He had to force Anakin to make up his mind, and looking like the victim worked perfectly. Also, only through him will Anakin learn what he needs to. He knows enough to know Anakin will not allow him to die. If he could not forsee what happened he will have killed Windu after he dispatched the other three.

The proof that Palpatine was holding back is evident in his ability to kill three Jedi Masters when facing four, and that his duel with Yoda shows Palpatine to us fighting much harder, faster and deadlier. While its true you have to adjust how you fight against particular opponents, all the above about Windu/Sidious is true because Yoda simply could not beat Palpatine and Yoda is stronger in the Force and a better duelist that Mace Windu was. For Sidious to be weaker against an inferior Jedi doesn't make sense, and while Mace Windu was a viable threat, Palpatine had him scouted and parryed with him as a warm-up for his duel with Yoda.

The Darth Sidious/Yoda duel is the only stalemate duel in the movie. Neither one of them can defeat the other because they are exactly as powerful and just as skilled in fighting.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Finally, the Light and the Dark sides of the Force will exist everywhere in the universe regardless of whether there are Jedi or Sith to use this energy or control or influence it. They do contribute to the Force, either for good or bad, but their deaths do not make it stronger.

Whenever something good and life giving happens positive Force is created, and when things like war and such happen darkness is created. In a way, the Jedi and the Sith are the police of the Force. Like traffic cops that direct the flow of things.

Ultimately however, the darkness has no place with the light or the Force itself. The darkness is a perversion of the living Force and the darknesses does not have to exist for there to be balance, contrary to popular belief of the whole ying and yang theory.

What creates imbalance is the presense of evil at all, and when it rivals the light, theres problems and in order for them to be settled, the slate has to be wiped clean as it was eventually.

The whole point of this series, from start to finish was for Dantius Palpatine to create such evil and imbalance of the Force that even if he himself was a casuality of war, he would effectively ensure the galaxy would be in disarray, and it was even after his apparent "death". It took the revival of the Jedi Order to really start setting things straight again. The light and darkness retreated to an equalibrium with his physical absense (and his need to recooperate and regain his strength for 6 years at the hands of a treacherous Vader).

The balance of the Force is never final. The idea that both sides have to exist is merely thought up because both sides do exist constantly and at the same time. But only one is truely necessary for life to thrive, die and live again.

" Twilight is upon me, and so, life must fall.That is the way of things, the way of the Force." - Yoda (Episode VI)

 

[Triple T1]

There seems to be a conflicting opinion at LucasFilms about how Sideous regards Vader in his cyborg form.
According to one source,Sideous finds him to be a disappointment. But according to Ian McDiarmid "...Palpatine converts a seeming tragedy into an opportunity and rebuids him as this hudge,unsympathetic metal creature,thereby creating the greatest villain of all time-next to himself of course.Palpatine wanted the greatest warrior ever,which Anakin clearly is,to protect the Empire."
I would rather go with Ians view,he gets his information directly from Lucas and the Director.True, Vader lost alot of Dexterity,but now he has an unparalled intimidation factor.His new form also fared better against Obiwan.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

So true. Look at it this way-

Palpatine got what he wanted, but not in the way he expected. While he was personally disappointed with the fact Anakin would now be handicapped he did manage to break Anakin and ensure that his hatred and loathing remained intact.

Vader is Palpatine's enforcer and is a symbol of what Palpatine represents as an evil presense. While a fully functional Vader would have been prefered, what happened to Anakin is actually beneficial for Palpatine in another way. Vader is no longer able to kill Palpatine, which is why he trys to tempt Luke to his side. Vader's handicaps are Palpatine's insurance policy. That and his clones, which is why Palpatine dares and taunts Luke to kill him, because if he does Luke turns and Palpatine has a body to occupy.

Palpatine is the ultimate opportunist who will manage to make something turn his way regardless of what he has to work with.

 

[Hungarian21]

I have a question about Palpatine: :snob:

I believe and agree on what you said about Palpatine capable of seeing the future, and loosing to Mace on porpuse. There is just one thing wrong with it. If Palpatine was capable of seeing the future in such precision and time, why on earth would he let/not see Anakin getting slain by Obi-Wan. He seemed supprised/relieved to see Darth Vader alive when he found him after his duel with Obi-Wan, and you did say his an opportunitist, but he would have had more use of Darth Vader if he remained human, wouldn't he?

So, what I want to know is, how is it that he didn't for-see Anakins loss? He could see everything else so clearly. Why not stop it from happening? :question: 😕

 

[Kalamos]

I think I can reply to that.

We are told that Palpatine's foresight comes from the Dark Side's growing power.
As it turns stronger, so do Palpatine's "visions".

He is probably aware Anakin is going to lose.
It actually works to his own benefit, since it only makes Anakin/Vader a more subservient pawn into Palpatine's hands.

If Palpatine had stopped him from confronting Padme and Obiwan, Anakin would have harboured doubt.

He was to seal his own fate, by severing the link with the only two persons capable of leading him back to the Light Side.

Palpatine's "timely" rescue only added to the ruse - in truth, a safe, sane Anakin would have been much more troublesome a minion than a powercrazed Vader, literally dependent on the Empire for his bionic sustenance.

When Dark Side wanes, so does Palpatine's foresight - and he's being killed by his most trusted lieutenant.

...

Vader has a penchant for turning sides just in the worst/best possible moment.
When Republic most needed him, he betrayed his loved ones.
When Empire called upon him, he changed alignment once again.

You could see it as a kind of atonement for his misdeeds - but he effectively gave in to his emotions again [the Dark Side] and betrayed the Emperor when he least expected it.
Quite in tune with his character, since he was powerful yet fickle.

...

Sure, it's just a movie, with its loose ends and weak links.
Still, it makes for a good fantasy story, and an engaging motion picture.

Just don't expect it to make much more sense than even the best novel out there. 🙂

 

[Janus4385]

I have a question... is it just me or does this movie, at least the last one also portraits a struggle between democracy and comunism/socialism/all others??? Where clearly democracy is appointed as the good guy I might ad... I don't know, just a thought...

 

[Janus4385]

The last one meaning episode III, not VI...

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Its simple. Dantius had so much focus on this event happening, how it would happen, and how he would plan it that he foresaw the results as such.

Why he couldn't forsee the details of Vader's danger is simple- he doesn't even know Kenobi is the reason he senses that Vader is in danger because no one knew that Obi-Wan snuck on Padme's ship so he could track Vader down. He doesn't know Kenobi is even still alive after Order 66 was executed. Several Jedi were probably still alive and later hunted down. And where they were and who they were is too difficult to see, because to quote Yoda in Return of the Jedi " difficult to see,always in motion is the future." And this is in regards to Yoda not being able to forsee Leia, Han, Chewie's and the droids' fate on Bespin Cloud City when Luke asks him.

You can't forsee what you're not thinking of or focusing on. "I sense Lord Vader is in danger..."- Darth Sidious.

He didn't know what this danger was, but I'm sure after he got his affairs in order and went to save Vader the pieces were coming together and a picture was forming in transit and he knew before he got there. He knew enough to tell Vader afterwards that he killed Padme. And he used the Force to tell him that. Only thing is neither of them know why she died, but Palpatine would rather tell Anakin she's dead because he killed her so it will fuel his rage and hate for himself.

And then of course neither man knows that there were twins or that they survived.

In regards to him finding Vader alive and being relieved, wouldn't you be if you were him? All of that hard work and brainwashing took years to instill into this youth and now that he has harnesssed his power theres a chance he could lose it? Of course he's worried and does everything he can to ensure Vader lives.

And that is being an opportunist because he would rather have a hellbent apprentice whose been weakened by injury and is far more loyal at this point then to not have one at all. Anakin's loss is Palpatine's gain, because it makes him easier to control and makes him physically incapable of killing Palpatine like he plans to.

While Sidious will have prefered a fully-functional Sith as an apprentice, what he got was even better.

As for your final question, he can't be in two places at once. He had barely finished with Yoda when he felt Vader was in danger. So traveling there would take time.

 

[Goodieluver]

Also, the force forsight is not like watchin a tv of the future

Anakins dreams just showed padme in pain\dying, he had no clue what would kill her exactly or when.

Im sure the emperor saw his death come from vader but i wonder if he had hoped it would spawn a vader\skywalker sith empire

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I have a question... is it just me or does this movie, at least the last one also portraits a struggle between democracy and comunism/socialism/all others??? Where clearly democracy is appointed as the good guy I might ad... I don't know, just a thought...

Lucas has openly said (in addition to this appealing to buddhist and christian beliefs) that the base story, that of "Star Wars" is a play on a democracy being overturned and becoming a dictatorship.

You'll notice in the original trilogy that most of the imperial officers have british accents and wear these nazi-looking uniforms and it gives off the sense of a totalitarianism.

This was all intentional and a play on Nazi Germany. While having the dialect or accents be generally the same thing was not necessary he did that because the Nazis represented an organization of germans. And thats what the Empire is. An organization recruiting like-minded people. To symbolize this, Lucas made them all british. I guess making them german would have been offensive. LOL

 

[Janus4385]

yep, thats what I thought.. Thanks for confirming it Vlad, as efficient as always 😀

 

[Goodieluver]

Lucas has openly said (in addition to this appealing to buddhist and christian beliefs) that the base story, that of "Star Wars" is a play on a democracy being overturned and becoming a dictatorship.

You'll notice in the original trilogy that most of the imperial officers have british accents and wear these nazi-looking uniforms and it gives off the sense of a totalitarianism.

This was all intentional and a play on Nazi Germany. While having the dialect or accents be generally the same thing was not necessary he did that because the Nazis represented an organization of germans. And thats what the Empire is. An organization recruiting like-mind people. To symbolize this, Lucas made them all british. I guess making them german would have been offensive. LOL

I didnt really draw a nazi approach to it since ive learned bout the political belief and it goes beyond typical totalitarianism, but in the films naturally i did get the sense of a regime ruling, similar to a typical "bad monarch" story

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Also, the force forsight is not like watchin a tv of the future

Anakins dreams just showed padme in pain\dying, he had no clue what would kill her exactly or when.

Im sure the emperor saw his death come from vader but i wonder if he had hoped it would spawn a vader\skywalker sith empire

I don't think Palpatine cared too much. Because he's not going to die even if his body parishes. This is why he taunts Luke to kill him. Thats an instant turn to the Dark Side, a new apprentice, and no worry because he has those clones waiting for his soul. And these are special clones, not the same ones spawned from the genetics of Jango Fett.

Vader doesn't know about this and Luke and the Alliance, even most of the Empire doesn't know about them.

Palpatine is in a much better way in Return of the Jedi than he is in Revenge of the Sith. He wins no matter what happens.

Although he was severely drained when Vader killed him. His soul was moving through the maddening void of the Dark Side, and its only through sheer will that he retained his identity like the Jedi now know is possible. He managed to cross the distance of space and enter a clone anyway, but it would of course take him 6 years to rebuild his strength, fleets and get his Empire back in order.

The Eclipse (his personal flagship) was actually under construction during the events of episode VI, and since it was so huge it would take years to complete. He always has a backup plan.

 

[Goodieluver]

I forgot about his special clones he had spawned

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I didnt really draw a nazi approach to it since ive learned bout the political belief and it goes beyond typical totalitarianism, but in the films naturally i did get the sense of a regime ruling, similar to a typical "bad monarch" story

Its definitely something to consider. Its like the differences between Hitler and Stalin.

Dantius Palpatine actually sees himself as the Republic's savior. The savior who saved it from self-collapse and further disillusion. And this is true, he did do these things. Which makes how you compare him to the dictatorships we have seen a matter of compare and contrast.

It could be said that he did what needed to be done and it worked out. Later down the line, people wished that Palpatine's Empire was still around when the Yuuzhan Vong initiated their invasion. They didn't like Palpatine in most cases, but were willing to admit that under him the galaxy would be a safer place compared to how soft the New Republic was and there were of course governmental debates when the invasion had proven too much for the New Republic to handle and that it would eventually be overun. Many believed Palpatine could have dealt with this threat and defeated it.

Talk about people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. LOL 😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

yep, thats what I thought.. Thanks for confirming it Vlad, as efficient as always 😀

No problem. 🙂

 

[Janus4385]

Hey Vlad, were can I get these books you mentioned???

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Well, its actually from different sources and reference materials, most of which I haven't even read, but is info I get from sources I know are reputable. Even Star Wars.com discribes in detail the future of Luke, Leia, Han, Palpatine, etc if you read the character profiles.

But its not like reading the books obviously.

The novels however you should be able to buy at any book store that has a sci-fi section. If they sell anything Star Wars, they'll most likely have them. It depends on what you're looking to learn specifically.

The future story of the expanded universe is also told through comics. Again, it depends on what you're looking to learn specifically that would determine which books or reference materials you should look into.