Why do folks hate rap music so much?

[magic fingers]

Personally, I'm not a big rap fan. IMO the difference between rap and other types of music is that other types of music (even 3 chord 80's hair metal) involve musicians who know how to actually play instruments, singers who can actually carry a tune, and people who can read and write music. Rap artists can be good song writers and good performers, but I don't consider them skilled musicians.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Personally, I'm not a big rap fan. IMO the difference between rap and other types of music is that other types of music (even 3 chord 80's hair metal) involve musicians who know how to actually play instruments, singers who can actually carry a tune, and people who can read and write music. Rap artists can be good song writers and good performers, but I don't consider them skilled musicians.

I would consider someone who writes his or her own material a skilled musician. Music is more than playing some instrument. It also takes skills to create the beats that are used for rap songs and songs from other genres.

 

[isabeau]

I would consider someone who writes his or her own material a skilled musician. Music is more than playing some instrument. It also takes skills to create the beats that are used for rap songs and songs from other genres.

o it definitely takes skill and talent to write one's own material...take it from someone who had to compose several pieces of music when i was in college..i sucked at it...i excelled at performance, not creating the music..

if rap weren't a music genre, why does the Grammy's recognize it as such?

 

[red indian]

"Everybody Digs Bill Evans"....sigh.......if only.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

o it definitely takes skill and talent to write one's own material...take it from someone who had to compose several pieces of music when i was in college..i sucked at it...i excelled at performance, not creating the music..

if rap weren't a music genre, why does the Grammy's recognize it as such?

Exactly. There has been a lot of talk in this thread about people's qualification's when it comes to judging music. I think we can all say that the people who work for the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, Inc., the presenters of the Grammy's, are more than qualified. And it's not just the grammy's, it's also the American Music Awards, the Billboard Music Awards and now even the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Everyone can recognize that rap is a musical genre except you rap haters.

 

[brianspencer66]

I really think alot of this is generational. I remember when I was a kid in the 60s and the older generation claimed Elvis or The beatles or The Stones had no real talent or that they were vulgar or obscene. Now along comes hip hop and lots of older people who grew up on progressive rock or any genre of rock are saying the same things the so called older generation were saying years ago. If you lived in the 60s most of the people who controlled advertising or the record companies came of age during the second world war so a there was a lingering sensability that was on network TV or the radio or in commericals. Though rock and roll played on the radio and was starting to sell lots of records the generation that ruled (people in their 40s and 50s) sort of forced fed us young ones Bing Cosby, Frank Sinatra, Nat Cole or any other pop singer from the 1930s and 40s. That was the norm then. Fast forward to now and turn on any TV commercial and what music do you hear?
Beatles music Songs by the Who or Sly Stone. Do you see what Im getting at here? The people now running Madison Ave are doing the exact same thing our parents did in the 60s. As for hip hop well no Im not the biggest fan in the world and yes some of it is vulgar for my aging taste. But as a musician for over 30 years to say that because one does not play an intrument and uses electronics is simply missing the point. Rap is a tradition in black music that goes back to Jazz or gospel music even the field slaves in the south used this. And well lets face it rock music was the first real foray into electronics.
And Id like to see any rock musician try to compose that kind of music. Its not that easy. One must understand that this music is filtered through an urban sensability though there is not much in a sense of musical harmony the rythyms can be quite complex and the audience will spot a faker a mile away if your ryhmes arent down. You really have to deeply understand this music in order to perform it. Remember May West of William Shatner doing rock songs and how stupid they sounded or looked doing it? Thats one reason I researving making harsh judgements or simplistic put downs. The same kind of statements your parents may have made about rock and roll. And yes though Im not a fan of Biggie Smalls and did not see the thread why not hold back your judement and let people post who happen to like his music? I see plenty of threads here for passing rock musicians who had less than a steller life and no one brings up negative aspects of their lifestyle. Lets not have a double standard and be fair.

 

[Mastertank1]

I think it's as much personal as generational;

I really think alot of this is generational. I remember when I was a kid in the 60s and the older generation claimed Elvis or The beatles or The Stones had no real talent or that they were vulgar or obscene. Now along comes hip hop and lots of older people who grew up on progressive rock or any genre of rock are saying the same things the so called older generation were saying years ago. If you lived in the 60s most of the people who controlled advertising or the record companies came of age during the second world war so a there was a lingering sensability that was on network TV or the radio or in commericals. Though rock and roll played on the radio and was starting to sell lots of records the generation that ruled (people in their 40s and 50s) sort of forced fed us young ones Bing Cosby, Frank Sinatra, Nat Cole or any other pop singer from the 1930s and 40s. That was the norm then. Fast forward to now and turn on any TV commercial and what music do you hear?
Beatles music Songs by the Who or Sly Stone. Do you see what Im getting at here? The people now running Madison Ave are doing the exact same thing our parents did in the 60s. As for hip hop well no Im not the biggest fan in the world and yes some of it is vulgar for my aging taste. But as a musician for over 30 years to say that because one does not play an intrument and uses electronics is simply missing the point. Rap is a tradition in black music that goes back to Jazz or gospel music even the field slaves in the south used this. And well lets face it rock music was the first real foray into electronics.
And Id like to see any rock musician try to compose that kind of music. Its not that easy. One must understand that this music is filtered through an urban sensability though there is not much in a sense of musical harmony the rythyms can be quite complex and the audience will spot a faker a mile away if your ryhmes arent down. You really have to deeply understand this music in order to perform it. Remember May West of William Shatner doing rock songs and how stupid they sounded or looked doing it? Thats one reason I researving making harsh judgements or simplistic put downs. The same kind of statements your parents may have made about rock and roll. And yes though Im not a fan of Biggie Smalls and did not see the thread why not hold back your judement and let people post who happen to like his music? I see plenty of threads here for passing rock musicians who had less than a steller life and no one brings up negative aspects of their lifestyle. Lets not have a double standard and be fair.

I turned 12 in September, 1960. I thought the first two or three albums Elvis recorded were pure crud, and I thought the first two Beatles albums were even worse. I still don't care much for the early work of either, although they did get better with musical maturity in their later albums.
The Stones' music, on the other hand, I loved from the first cut on the first album. I thought, then and now, that their talents were a whole order of magnitude above the Beatles or Elvis, or anyone else out then.

 

[brianspencer66]

I turned 12 in September, 1960. I thought the first two or three albums Elvis recorded were pure crud, and I thought the first two Beatles albums were even worse. I still don't care much for the early work of either, although they did get better with musical maturity in their later albums.
The Stones' music, on the other hand, I loved from the first cut on the first album. I thought, then and now, that their talents were a whole order of magnitude above the Beatles or Elvis, or anyone else out then.

Hmm yeah well ok. But my point really was about how the older generation viewed early rock and roll then fast forward to todays hip hop music and how older people are making similar comments. Everything old is new again. But while you are on the subject I love the Stones music but you cannot compare them to the sheer innovation the Beatles brought to popular music.The Rolling Stones were the greatest rock and roll band in the world but The Beatles were much much much more.

 

[steph]

Here's the difference as I see it. Like a lot of things, a few bad apples spoil it for all the rest. With the exception of Altamont, the Stones never hurt anyone and that was an accident. Elvis hurt only himself. I think a lot of (mostly white) people have prejudice against rap artists because of the thug lifestyle that some of the performers bring to it~that's the stuff that makes the headlines right?? How many people here have heard about Tupac's first encounter with one of my personal heroes, the brilliant pioneer and poet Dr. Maya Angelou? It's a pretty good story, one I hadn't heard until I watched Iconoclasts with Dr. and Dave Chappelle. That kind of story, the positive, never gets any press. And it's a shame. I was never a fan of Tupac's music personally but a lot of my friends were and I understand why people cared so much about him.

XOXO

 

[primetime]

i think ticklishgiggle, Ticklefiend, Steph and Brianspencer have said it best about rap music. "rap haters" have no idea on how hard it is to actually be a successful rap artist. do you really think ANYONE can just write some rhymes and rap over a synthetic beat and it will be good? i have had several friends through my high school years who tried to become rappers, but they are doing something else. it really is hard to be successful in rap.

like ticklishgiggle wrote, if rap is not music, why do they even win "music" awards? think about it....

2pac was an artist who was brilliant. his downfall was he "played" too much in the gangsta lifestyle. but before he was a part of Death Row records, he acted in movies, hell, he attended a performing arts high school. his death is a tragedy for sure.

and finally, if rap is not music, how can you explain people dancing to it. there is a beat. there is a rhythm. if that is not music, then what is. music can make you dance. rap music does that.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

i think ticklishgiggle, Ticklefiend, Steph and Brianspencer have said it best about rap music. "rap haters" have no idea on how hard it is to actually be a successful rap artist. do you really think ANYONE can just write some rhymes and rap over a synthetic beat and it will be good? i have had several friends through my high school years who tried to become rappers, but they are doing something else. it really is hard to be successful in rap.

like ticklishgiggle wrote, if rap is not music, why do they even win "music" awards? think about it....

2pac was an artist who was brilliant. his downfall was he "played" too much in the gangsta lifestyle. but before he was a part of Death Row records, he acted in movies, hell, he attended a performing arts high school. his death is a tragedy for sure.

and finally, if rap is not music, how can you explain people dancing to it. there is a beat. there is a rhythm. if that is not music, then what is. music can make you dance. rap music does that.

And I know some of you have said and will continue to say that rap artists aren't real musicians because they don't play an instrument. Well, they must practice to perfect their craft just like any other artists who must practice to perfect theirs, i.e. guitar, drum or whatever. That's why you have people like a Dr. Dre who is seeked out by other artists when they want a hot track. You can keep telling yourself that rap isn't music but the world is telling you that it is everyday, through commercials, sports events, radio and any other vehicle that will expose it to the world.

 

[jaba]

is "Rap"........"Music"?........

"Everybody Digs Bill Evans"....sigh.......if only.

I just started reading this thread....it has been very entertaining and informative, and I do not think that I have ever witnessed a broader display of knowledge and intelligence, and ignorance (lack of knowledge, not meant to be an insult) on one subject in all my years on this forum....

I have yet to see a conclusive answer to one question of mine....or I could have missed it

Does "Rap" or "Hip Hop" meet the standard, tecnical definition of "Music"? I hope no one takes issue or offense to my question, because it is simply a question with no hidden agenda.....

My limited knowledge (ignorance) of the broader definition of the word "music" is on display here....I believe rap is an "art form", but can "Rap" accurately be described as "music", notwithstanding its inclusion in Grammy and American music award ceremonies?

I guess part of my issue is with some of the terms used here......I for one question why new age musicians such as Kenny G are regarded as "Jazz" musicians.....the mention of his name associated with "jazz" would get you cursed, and beat up, in some of the L A jazz clubs I frequent....

I and some goofy buddies of mine, who have very little knowedge or skill in the game of golf, go on occasion to the golf course and embarrass ourselves and those around us.....but do you judge the validity and skill it takes to play golf based on the play of me and my idiot buddies, or on the play of Tiger Woods? Would you judge basketball on the example displayed in a pick up game in a park, or on the play of Michael Jordan? So is it fair to base all of your assumptions and biases about "Rap" on the cussing, mysoginistic, dope dealing pimp that you heard one or two times blaring out of a radio? That kind of displays your lack of exposure (ignorance) more than your objective opinion on the subject...

I listen to a lot of Tupac Shakur (is he REALLY dead? You would never know based on his annual new cd releases)......on many of his "songs", he is as brilliant and insightful on the issues of American society as Marvin Gaye....but sadly, some of his work, like his life, was self destructive......

But on which part of his work do we form our own opinion and biases? That tells us more about us, than about "Rap" or "Hip Hop".....

 

[zepp3320]

i completely disagree with those who claim that rap artists are not musicians since they don't play an instrument. first of all making a beat even if through electronic means does take talent. secondly music is about getting an emotional response from people and rap just does just that by getting people to dance.

 

[chicago]

mu·sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.
5. such scores collectively.
6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.
7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.

These are multiple definitions, not a list of requirements that a piece must abide by. That said, I think based on these definitions, hip hop is music.

Also, the fact that many awards shows recognize hip hop goes to show that it is music. And if a few people who are too old to understand the hip hop generation don't accept it as such, who really cares?

 

[jaba]

mu·sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.
5. such scores collectively.
6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.
7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.

These are multiple definitions, not a list of requirements that a piece must abide by. That said, I think based on these definitions, hip hop is music.

Also, the fact that many awards shows recognize hip hop goes to show that it is music. And if a few people who are too old to understand the hip hop generation don't accept it as such, who really cares?

I have little regard for the opinions of many music award shows, I happen to believe that many of their selections for "musical recognition" are more political than artistic..and many amount to little more than popularity contests.....

and you dont have to be "old" to ask why some of the more self destructive and negative elements of an art form are allowed to overshadow the more creative elements of that art form....fewer people will listen to Tupac ask the insightful question, "I wonder if Heaven has a ghetto", if all they hear about is him getting killed over some dumb ass "gang affiliation" in Las vegas......

thank you for the definition of the word "music".....and by that definition, Hip Hop IS music.....

 

[drew70]

I've been quietly following this thread since I last participated a couple of days ago. It's still going strong, but I can't help noticing you guys seem to keep repeating the same things, (Rap IS music...It IS music!...) even when nobody is arguing with you. This thread has become a completely one-sided discussion. That just won't do at all.

You guys need somebody willing to stand up against the tide of popular agreement and offer you some counterpoint to balance things out a little. This would have to be somebody who doesn't care about being popular, who doesn't have any reputation at stake. Somebody with a history of taking a lone stand against the majority, completely outnumbered. Somebody who can take an insult or seven and not run crying to the mods about it.

That's right, folks. You guys need me!

Now before I offer my services here, let's all remember, that this is only a discussion, a sharing of opinions, agreements and disagreements. There is absolutely NO REASON for anybody to take any of this shit personally. Everybody hearing me, here? The bottom line is, nobody can tell you what to like and what not to like. If rap is your thing, who am I or anybody else to tell you it shouldn't be? You guys are all cool in my book, and I judge none of you.

Now, having said that, let's take a look at these definitions, and see which if any qualify rap as music. Multiple definitions in a dictionary are similar to ingredients listed on a product. The first couple are the most significant to note.

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

Well rap does have elements of rhythm, no doubt about it. The biggest disqualifier of rap from being music, is there is no melody, and no harmony.

Strike one.

2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

Hmm. There's that bit about melody and harmony again. Damn.

Strike two.

3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

Well, there's no singing in rap, and most of it has no playing either, other than sampled (stolen) backgrounds from the days when making it in the audio entertainment industry required actual musical talent. Even in the rap performances in which actual instruments are played, i.e, drums, bass, etc., they aren't the dominant elements, but rather the backdrop. Simply put, what makes it rap are the vocals which are devoid of any melody or harmony, the building blocks of music.

Strike three.

4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

The key word here is "score." That refers to the little black dots which denote once again...MELODY and HARMONY.

Strike four.

5. such scores collectively.

Strike five.

6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.

Out of all the definitions, this is the only one by which rap might hope to qualify as music. It's a broad, mostly metaphorical application of the word that basically says anything that sounds good is "music to one's ears."

Ball one.

7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.

This definition is predicated on previous conditions to which rap fails to comply.

Strike 6

8. any material or genre honored at the Grammys or other celebration of popular entertainment.

Oh wait, that wasn't included in the definitions of music, was it?

Strike 7

There we have it. Rap has abysmally failed to qualify as music except in the most metaphorical applications of the word. It has rhythm, but no melody, and no harmony, which by any technical definition of music, is required.

 

[Mastertank1]

Careful, Drew!

Remember, rappers HAVE been known to take out their mad by busting a cap on somebody's ass! 😱
Watch yours, buddy!
I ain't in the bodyguard biz no more!

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Remember, rappers HAVE been known to take out their mad by busting a cap on somebody's ass! 😱
Watch yours, buddy!
I ain't in the bodyguard biz no more!

Maybe when they're finished with him they'll come after you

 

[drew70]

Remember, rappers HAVE been known to take out their mad by busting a cap on somebody's ass! 😱
Watch yours, buddy!
I ain't in the bodyguard biz no more!

Now now, Tank. You're stereo-typing an entire genre based on only 90 percent of it's most popular material. That's really shallow, man. 😉

 

[Mastertank1]

I ain't hard ta' find.

Maybe when they're finished with him they'll come after you

Just look for the largest moving object without a license plate.
If they come after me, it won't be the first time.
Unless they get unreasonably lucky, it won't be the last either.

 

[chicago]

Now, having said that, let's take a look at these definitions, and see which if any qualify rap as music. Multiple definitions in a dictionary are similar to ingredients listed on a product. The first couple are the most significant to note.

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

Well rap does have elements of rhythm, no doubt about it. The biggest disqualifier of rap from being music, is there is no melody, and no harmony.

Strike one.

mel·o·dy /ˈmɛlədi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mel-uh-dee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -dies.
1. musical sounds in agreeable succession or arrangement.
2. Music.

I disagree that rap doesn't have melody.

2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

Hmm. There's that bit about melody and harmony again. Damn.

Again, the thing about melody. Melody being musical sounds in agreeable succession. Rap has that.

3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

Well, there's no singing in rap, and most of it has no playing either, other than sampled (stolen) backgrounds from the days when making it in the audio entertainment industry required actual musical talent. Even in the rap performances in which actual instruments are played, i.e, drums, bass, etc., they aren't the dominant elements, but rather the backdrop. Simply put, what makes it rap are the vocals which are devoid of any melody or harmony, the building blocks of music.

There actually is occasional singing in rap, so there goes that. And I guess your definition of instrument needs to be updated as well.

in·stru·ment /ˈɪnstrəmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-struh-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a contrivance or apparatus for producing musical sounds:

Apparatus for producing musical sounds. So, technically, even a synthesizer could be considered an instrument. I mean, if a comb can be considered an instrument, or even a jug, a computerized device most certainly can be.

On the other hand, I thought this was funny

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/z9A2I-X7b-w"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/z9A2I-X7b-w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Just look for the largest moving object without a license plate.
If they come after me, it won't be the first time.
Unless they get unreasonably lucky, it won't be the last either.

If they do it as much as you claim then I'm sure they won't need any luck.

 

[chicago]

What's this?!!!

Rap with a POSITIVE MESSAGE?

And what are those men doing in the background?

PLAYING INSTRUMENTS!

Whoa!!

And there's SINGING!!!

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kNq4zj28UmY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kNq4zj28UmY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

 

[Azrael]

Rap

More, and more, I am convinced that rap has real talent out there, and that it simply isn't being represented to the general public.

(No pun intended...)

 

[jaba]

despite what "websters" says....."rap" is still not "music"?

I've been quietly following this thread since I last participated a couple of days ago. It's still going strong, but I can't help noticing you guys seem to keep repeating the same things, (Rap IS music...It IS music!...) even when nobody is arguing with you. This thread has become a completely one-sided discussion. That just won't do at all.

You guys need somebody willing to stand up against the tide of popular agreement and offer you some counterpoint to balance things out a little. This would have to be somebody who doesn't care about being popular, who doesn't have any reputation at stake. Somebody with a history of taking a lone stand against the majority, completely outnumbered. Somebody who can take an insult or seven and not run crying to the mods about it.

That's right, folks. You guys need me!

Now before I offer my services here, let's all remember, that this is only a discussion, a sharing of opinions, agreements and disagreements. There is absolutely NO REASON for anybody to take any of this shit personally. Everybody hearing me, here? The bottom line is, nobody can tell you what to like and what not to like. If rap is your thing, who am I or anybody else to tell you it shouldn't be? You guys are all cool in my book, and I judge none of you.

Now, having said that, let's take a look at these definitions, and see which if any qualify rap as music. Multiple definitions in a dictionary are similar to ingredients listed on a product. The first couple are the most significant to note.

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

Well rap does have elements of rhythm, no doubt about it. The biggest disqualifier of rap from being music, is there is no melody, and no harmony.

Strike one.

2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

Hmm. There's that bit about melody and harmony again. Damn.

Strike two.

3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

Well, there's no singing in rap, and most of it has no playing either, other than sampled (stolen) backgrounds from the days when making it in the audio entertainment industry required actual musical talent. Even in the rap performances in which actual instruments are played, i.e, drums, bass, etc., they aren't the dominant elements, but rather the backdrop. Simply put, what makes it rap are the vocals which are devoid of any melody or harmony, the building blocks of music.

Strike three.

4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

The key word here is "score." That refers to the little black dots which denote once again...MELODY and HARMONY.

Strike four.

5. such scores collectively.

Strike five.

6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.

Out of all the definitions, this is the only one by which rap might hope to qualify as music. It's a broad, mostly metaphorical application of the word that basically says anything that sounds good is "music to one's ears."

Ball one.

7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.

This definition is predicated on previous conditions to which rap fails to comply.

Strike 6

8. any material or genre honored at the Grammys or other celebration of popular entertainment.

Oh wait, that wasn't included in the definitions of music, was it?

Strike 7

There we have it. Rap has abysmally failed to qualify as music except in the most metaphorical applications of the word. It has rhythm, but no melody, and no harmony, which by any technical definition of music, is required.

Drew, your good humor has a way of easing the nail biting, suffocating tension in any thread, particularly on a topic as critical to the very existence of mankind as whether "rap qualifies as music"....

I disagree with some of your points, and I don't agree with your "a la carte" selection of definitions which suit your conclusions, but to fairly give your viewpoint clarification, and a fighting chance at survival.....

I guess the logical question is, what is the standard definition of "rap", and does this definition happily co-exist with your interpretation of the term?.....